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Sept. 15, 2022

Alison Cayne (Haven's Kitchen) - From founding a cooking school to creating a sauce brand

Alison Cayne (Haven's Kitchen) - From founding a cooking school to creating a sauce brand

Our guest today is Alison Cayne, who is the founder of Haven’s Kitchen. Haven’s Kitchen is a cooking school and a sauce brand that creates fresh sauces in easy-squeezy, lightweight pouches.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Why she wanted to teach others how to cook
  • Founding Haven’s Kitchen in NYC
  • Why she decided to launch your own sauce line
  • Her approach to packaging and brand positioning
  • How she got into retail
  • The current fundraising environment in CPG
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.120 Hey, welcome to the consumer VC. I'm your host, Michael, and 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.960 on this show we discussed how to invest and build incredible consumer brands. If 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.600 you enjoy this show and want to be one of the first to get access 4 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:27.679 to new episodes, I highly recommend going to the consumer VC DOT COM and 5 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:32.759 sign up to my newsletter. All newsletter recipients receive a copy of weekend advance 6 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:37.119 of new episodes before it's on any podcast network for Youtube. Our guest today 7 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:40.840 is Alison Kane, who is the founder of haven's kitchen. Haven's kitchen is 8 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:45.159 a cooking school and a sauce brand that creates fresh sausage and easy, squeezy, 9 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.600 lightweight pouches. She also hosts the podcast in the sauce, which is 10 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:53.399 all about how to build consumer brands. In this episode we discussed what got 11 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:57.200 her into cooking, why she started a cooking school and how she created her 12 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.119 own sauce brand, her approach to fundraising, bringing on partners and the current 13 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:11.400 state of fundraising within CPG. Without further ADO, here's Allison. Allison, 14 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.359 thank you so much for joining me here today. How are you well? 15 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:19.239 I'm super pumped to be here. Thanks for having me. Doing well, 16 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.599 I want to start from the very beginning, Allison, like what was your 17 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:30.560 initial attraction to cooking and going and creating haven's kitchen? It really goes back 18 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.560 to, I mean really me as a kid. Basically, it was like 19 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:40.079 the kitchen was this place where I felt very happy and creative, where I 20 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:46.000 got to control stuff, where I got to bring people together and make things 21 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.120 that made people happy and, I don't know, feel a certain amount of 22 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.719 agency, I guess. And it was always that for me through Middle School, 23 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.920 High School, College, you know, being a young mom. I 24 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.599 had five kids pretty early, like starting at and the more that I grew 25 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.640 up, the more I realized that that was very unusual and there were a 26 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.800 lot of people around me who had a lot of fear and loathing around cooking 27 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.479 in the kitchen and shopping and cleaning and what to make and am I going 28 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.960 to make people sick and I don't know and I don't I don't like it, 29 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.240 and and then and confusion around what was good and all of that. 30 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.639 I was always teaching. I mean I started teaching people how to Cook in 31 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.479 College. Then when I decided to go back and get a master's degree in 32 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:37.919 like food systems and food policy. That's when I really made the connection that 33 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:43.039 this wasn't just something about like personal feeling good and agency and creativity, this 34 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.159 was something that really could, you know, affect the entire food system and 35 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:52.199 that the more people that were comfortable and confident cooking at home, the better 36 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.319 for our environment, animals, farm labor practices, you know, really the 37 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:00.960 whole kitten caboodle. What I really appreciate about your story is I feel like 38 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:07.400 when someone really becomes passionate about cooking and really maybe wants to pursue it as 39 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.599 a profession, they maybe want to become a chef or they want to earn 40 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:14.400 a restaurant, they want to share what their ideas are to the world, 41 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.479 which is awesome and, you know, a huge fan of obviously, of 42 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:21.960 restaurants and loved, loved feat out. But what I appreciate about your story 43 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.039 is that you thought this was a need to really help inspire other people to 44 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.919 actually go out and cook and to teach other people, and when it and 45 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.599 came about it from more of like a teaching perspective instead of, Hey, 46 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:38.039 this is like an awesome dish that I really hope you enjoy type of way. 47 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:39.719 Yeah, I mean I think there are two pieces of that. One 48 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:46.560 is that I was always a really good home cook. I was not a 49 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:52.039 professional chef and I don't think I had the discipline. I don't think I 50 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:54.960 had the fortitude. I know I didn't have the time. You know that 51 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.960 that that was a career path that. First of all, it was the 52 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.080 nineties to for an era, a different time. It wasn't cool back then. 53 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.879 You know, there was a lot and that I did. I had, 54 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:09.479 you know, five kids under eight, so I wasn't going to be 55 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.280 a professional chef and I also, you know, to your point, I 56 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:19.199 got a lot of satisfaction out of showing someone that they had it in them 57 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:25.040 to make something really delicious and people who had always made, you know, 58 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.800 asparagus that were gray and wilted the first time that they make themselves a really 59 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:34.759 crispy, bright green, delicious like charred Asparagus, they're like light bulbs go 60 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:41.120 off in their brain. It's addictive. It's amazing to watch people learn and 61 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:46.240 feel great about themselves. I know you also have a deep passion as well, 62 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.240 and I think you alluded to to with sustainable lifestyle, in this idea 63 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:53.079 of like eating a lot healthier and I think this is part of like what 64 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.319 you wanted to accomplish in terms of teaching people about healthy f what do you 65 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:04.560 meet someone that might be interested in cooking and or don't maybe understand quite about 66 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:11.600 ingredient lists or what's actually better for them? What's like a good place to 67 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.120 start, and where do you feel like you've been able to generate like an 68 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.199 impact in that light? I mean, I am by no means the first 69 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:25.120 person to say this. This was a nutritionist named Joan Gussou who started teaching 70 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:29.079 at Colombia in the Nineties Seventies. She's sort of, you know, taught 71 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.120 Michael Pollen kind of everything he knew, and then Omnivore's dilemma came out in 72 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.560 two thousand and ten. But it's really not complicated, and I think it's 73 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:42.639 been over complicated and over merchandise to some extent. Right like, if something 74 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.560 grows in the ground, if it is a whole food, if it comes 75 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:51.160 from someplace close to where you live, if it hasn't seen a lot of 76 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:57.519 packaging or handling or manufacturing, it is most likely going to be good for 77 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.800 you, full stop. It really doesn't need to get much more complicated than 78 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.399 that. I think what's happened is that you know, and there's all sorts 79 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:09.360 of research on sort of, you know, the post war industrial food complex, 80 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:14.399 but we've been conditioned to think that we need things to be fortified, 81 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:18.920 where basically it's because things have been extracted out and then things have to be 82 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.439 put back in. But if you're just eating whole foods that are grown near 83 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.560 your house, you're going to be getting a good diet for the most part. 84 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.839 Absolutely true, and I think that we've definitely seen. An area that 85 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:35.360 kind of comes up on this show quite a bit is food that is better 86 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:41.439 for you versus better for the planet. And sometimes it's not always the same 87 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:46.480 thing. And there was a debate in the eighties about local versus organic kind 88 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:47.639 of. You know, all of these things kind of come and go. 89 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.120 Keto is Atkins and you know, every everything's like cyclical and these things come 90 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:58.199 and go and trends and whatnot. But there was this whole discussion about, 91 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.439 you know, is it better to eat something that has a little bit of 92 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.399 pesticide if it's grown locally, versus like none, if it's grown three thousand 93 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:09.279 miles away? And like anything else, it's you know, there's it's not 94 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.319 zero sum. You know, there are choices that we all have to make 95 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.519 and choices that you make as a consumer. I think that there is a 96 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:23.120 little bit right now there's a lot of marketing going into a lot of products 97 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:30.240 that are sort of Um, chemically engineered, things that have higher reaching, 98 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.879 you know, goals. You know, get people to eat less meat, 99 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:39.879 do it at sort of whatever means you can, you know, and make 100 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:46.319 this stuff that maybe hasn't necessarily been vetted in terms of its environmental impact. 101 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.480 I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I think setting up 102 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:56.560 for the American consumer that you have to choose between good for you and good 103 00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:01.480 for the planet. I think that's the problem, because it's a false economy 104 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:07.000 that's not real. If you choose to eat more plants and lagoons instead of 105 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.240 meat, that is undoubtedly good for the planet and most likely good for your 106 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:16.680 personal health. The marketing around these products, I think that's where the issue 107 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.959 starts to come in and the money that's, you know, poured into it. 108 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.680 Yeah, I think also kind of the research around, which again we're 109 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.000 still in like the very early stages of a lot of this type of products, 110 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.800 like tech food per se. You know, if it's better for you, 111 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.399 for example, definitely, you know, usually it's better for the planet. 112 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.480 If it is like a you know, like a vegetarian alternative, right, 113 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.600 or a plant based alternative to a meat product, then great, you're 114 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.720 not killing obviously the the animal. So in that sense, like it is 115 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.320 better. But there is that kind of debate about some of the ingredients that 116 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:52.000 are on the label and maybe some of the ingredients being unproven in terms of 117 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.480 whether or not they are it is actually better for you. Yeah, I 118 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:58.759 mean I think that's why, you know, you know when we made these 119 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.799 sauces, you know, I we call ourselves sort of like diet agnostic. 120 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.519 You know, if you are Keto and you only want to eat meat because 121 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.080 you have decided that that is the right diet for you and you know somehow 122 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:16.120 your doctor has made that decision, then great, these sauces will make your 123 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.919 meat taste better because, you know, meat usually needs a little something something. 124 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:24.080 If you don't eat meat and you're only eating vegetables, these sauces will 125 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.840 also make your vegetables taste better. The key for us is that whatever you 126 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.879 are cooking, you feel confident and good making that you're wasting less, that 127 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:37.759 you're using less sugar and salt, that you're making good choices for you and 128 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.720 your community, because those choices really do have a much bigger impact than just 129 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.559 you know yourself and your your key tones or your blood pressure, you know 130 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.679 your insulin. Obviously you had a very successful cooking school. You obviously had 131 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.639 a recipe book on the teach snide. What kind of compelled you to start 132 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.039 your own CPG? Lie? I mean I I would say two things happened 133 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.600 sort of at the same time. So I opened the cooking school in two 134 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.840 thousand and twelve and, like you said, it was very successful, really 135 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:15.639 rock and roll in Super Happy Place. Um Somehow ended up being an events 136 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:20.120 venue and a wedding venue and a cafe and it was just kind of crazy 137 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:26.159 amazing. Interestingly, I didn't know this, but we launched that. You 138 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.000 know, we opened the school the same year that Blue Apron and plated launched 139 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:35.399 their meal kits. And kind of interestingly, I think we had similar objectives. 140 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.000 Mine in a very small, you know, mom and pop way, 141 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.480 those founders in a very big picture way. But the idea is that, 142 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.840 you know, cooking doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to take 143 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.039 a lot of time, it can be joyful, it can be creative and, 144 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.799 most of all, you can feel like a champion when you do it, 145 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.600 and that is an amazing feeling. And as someone who has five kids, 146 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.200 I can tell you, if you're coming from the place where home cooking 147 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.600 is good for the planet, x, Y Z, that is not debatable. 148 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.159 If you tell people you should cook more, that is very unlikely to 149 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.320 get people to cook more. If you make it amazing and fun and beautiful, 150 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.799 that will make people want to do it more. That's just human nature. 151 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.639 So, you know, five years in we have all these students and 152 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:30.720 they've all subscribed and unsubscribed for meal kits because they said, you know, 153 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.200 it's too much waste and I feel pressure and they're not making me feel like 154 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:37.679 I'm learning anything. All I really need is the sauce. I can figure 155 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.519 out how to make a chicken that isn't rubbery. I can figure out, 156 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:45.120 you know, how to make rice that isn't clumpy, but I can't figure 157 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.480 out how to get that like last mile of flavor and I don't want to 158 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.240 put ranch dressing in Marinera on everything. So they basically were like can you 159 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.480 just package these things that you're teaching us how to make. You know, 160 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.879 they're mincing or they're blending or they're roasting or there's using, you know, 161 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.679 ingredients that home cooks, you know, maccruit leaves and lemon grass. They 162 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.360 don't necessarily have access or know what to do with these things. And you 163 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.279 know, at the time it was, you know, seventeen when we developed 164 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.360 them, twenty eighteen when we launched them. They just weren't there weren't a 165 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.559 lot of sort of global flavors out there. You know, there's a lot 166 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:20.320 of disruption that's happened in the last couple of years, which is great, 167 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.000 but even still we're the only people doing like fresh, you know, everything 168 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.039 shelf stable. Everything's kind of like boiled. No one's kind of doing what 169 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:33.759 we're doing. So I think one part of it was just like hearing people 170 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.399 that would be potential consumers saying this is a need and and you're the people 171 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:41.480 to do it. I think the other piece of it was that, you 172 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.519 know, we had, like you said, we had this really successful thing 173 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.679 and I built somewhat of a brand and a reputation and I felt like there 174 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.879 was more that it could do. And I felt like it was more, 175 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:56.639 you know, that there was more we could do in people's actual kitchens. 176 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.200 That how do I take this nugget of some thing and not have it be 177 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.879 that people have to come here to learn? How can I get like a 178 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.480 little, you know, a little sidekick, into everyone's kitchen across America and 179 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.080 be like you got this, you can do this, just do this, 180 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.080 you know. How how do I get myself into everyone's kitchen across the country? 181 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.840 And I wasn't a tech person, you know, I'm a home cook 182 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.759 person. So the sauces just really felt like they worked, you know, 183 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.559 and then they did work, which was lucky. Basically, what was your 184 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.120 approach, because obviously you built up a brand in New York City with haven's 185 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:39.639 kitchen. What was your approach to building that brand, generating a I'd imagine 186 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.519 you have a very passionate community in New York City, and then how do 187 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:48.840 you then think about expanding that to, you know, different parts of the 188 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.279 US where people might not be familiar with with haveen kitchen but obviously, you 189 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:58.000 know, might enjoy your sauces? Yeah, I mean I wish I could 190 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.720 be like, well, this is how we did it, but I'm honestly, 191 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.360 it's kind of a miracle to me. So, in terms of, 192 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.200 you know, the first question of building the brand, I think that the 193 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:13.679 great thing about coming from a hospitality background is that we didn't really think we 194 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.480 were building a brand. We thought we were serving a need, and I 195 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:22.240 think that that is where some people start to make a mistake. You know, 196 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.600 when you are genuinely serving a need and you are genuinely there to make 197 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.480 someone's life a little better for the five, twenty two hours that they're in 198 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.000 your space with you, whether it's getting a cup of coffee, getting married, 199 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.120 taking a cooking class, reading your cookbook, whatever it is, you 200 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:46.279 were really truly focused on them their life, adding value to their life right 201 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.200 and giving them something to make it better just for the time that you're with 202 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.519 them. That's different from I'm going to build a brand, because I'm going 203 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.480 to build a brand is about me. I'm going to make your life better, 204 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:01.559 is about you, and so that's been in grained in me and in 205 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.159 my team since two thousand and twelve. So when we did actually sort of 206 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:11.879 expand from brick and mortar two packaged good we were never coming at it from 207 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.039 let's build this brand. We were always coming at it from okay, how 208 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.639 are we going to show that we're valuable? How are we going to show 209 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:24.360 people that we can make their lives easier and better and make dinner faster and 210 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.120 let them feel that feeling of like I made this at the end right, 211 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.960 like that's a completely different perspective to have and I'm grateful that I got it 212 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:39.159 kind of kicked into me in my brick and mortar years because I think it's 213 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.120 what has really served us well in the second part, you know, going 214 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.559 national. Literally the week that covid happened in April, we had a national 215 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.799 demo plan all ready to go. We were launching in whatever, five hundred 216 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.440 stores, you know, whole foods across the country. We had the key 217 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:00.120 cities, we had the key team, we had, you know, the 218 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:06.039 whole map of how we were going to track the demo plans and the merchandising 219 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:11.120 teams and and it all literally just went poof overnight. So we very quickly 220 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:18.600 had to, you know, start leaning really heavily into content, reaching people 221 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.559 where they were. You know, again it goes back to sort of the 222 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:25.039 humility, I think of this brand. Like we know that there are people 223 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.200 that are looking for recipes on Youtube and we know there are people looking for 224 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:32.000 recipes on Tiktok, and those are different people and they're looking for different things 225 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:37.080 and we tailor what we're doing to make their lives better, as opposed to 226 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:38.320 this is the brand and you guys need to be a part of it. 227 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:42.120 Feel be a part of our community. We don't need that. We want 228 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.519 to just make your life better. I love you to, if you to 229 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.799 walk us through a little bit of like that period and how you had to 230 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:51.480 be some of the things you have to kind of learn on the fly, 231 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.320 like what is marketing? Yeah, that's what we had to learn. I 232 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.799 mean basically we were like, okay, so, I mean Courtney, who 233 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.559 you know, is our brand director, who you know, she was my 234 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:11.920 buyer a fresh direct, and then she came over to like basically demysticize grocery 235 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.000 for me, because I had no idea what the hell was going on, 236 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.640 and she basically started as like Shopper Marketing and she made sure that we were 237 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.920 like cranking in the fourteen New York City stores and then cranking in the fifty 238 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.480 regional stores and she was going to make sure we cranked in the five hundred, 239 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:32.319 you know, national stores, and you know our thesis was. You 240 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:37.839 know it kind of you know a playbook. If you if you outperform from 241 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:42.880 a velocity perspective and whole foods, your story becomes much easier to then sell 242 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.039 a to, you know, outside of whole foods, into the natural channel, 243 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.799 but then, you know, conventional and then mass. So this was 244 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.680 our main goal, was crank in whole foods. That was the plan. 245 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:02.359 We kind of looked at each other on the floor of an Airbnb in Anaheim 246 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:07.720 the day that Expo West was canceled and we processed really quickly that there would 247 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.200 be no expo west and then, almost like within four seconds, we looked 248 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.880 at each other and we're like there's also going to be no demos. So 249 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.599 the two of US basically together, we're like, okay, what's marketing? 250 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:25.079 And we interviewed everyone. Fortunately I had this podcast, you know, my 251 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:30.039 podcast, so I knew enough people that I could call and we just we 252 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.160 made a chart and we're like what do we need to do on email? 253 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.519 How do we launch SMS? What do we do on our website? Courtney 254 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:40.720 remade our website. Literally what's paid and what does that look like when you're 255 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:45.160 primarily wholesale brand and we're not actually trying to drive people to buy directly from 256 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.200 us. You know, that's a very different type of performance, right. 257 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.079 What are all the different social channels? What do each one you know, 258 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.480 what does each one do? WHO's there? And we just kind of went 259 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:59.799 like Bing Bing, bing, Bing Bing, made a thesis around each decided 260 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.319 or we could prioritize what we wanted to, you know, focus on, 261 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.559 try to learn as best we could as quick as we could and, you 262 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.759 know, fortunately, I think we have a great product. I think we 263 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:14.759 have a lot of people who really love our product and who probably did a 264 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.279 lot of word of mouth for us on our behalf. We nurtured them as 265 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.799 best we could. We have great people on this team who, you know, 266 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.359 helped push it. It's kind of amazing. I mean we do kind 267 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.240 of look back and it's amazing that some of our top stores are in regions 268 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.599 where we've never set foot. It's it's amazing. Wow. I love to 269 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:38.160 dig in a little bit more about how you approach content, because it's a 270 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.799 bit round about, right. You're given that you're primarily a wholesale business. 271 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:47.160 I mean, you know CPG majority it's going to be a wholesale business, 272 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.799 despite the obviously uptake that we've seen in covid but it's a bit round about 273 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:56.119 and that you're not trying to get a perspective customer to shop online. You're 274 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.240 trying to get them to think of you when they go in. What when 275 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.680 they next go into whole foods or they go next go into or even, 276 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.759 you know, travel to a store that you're in, which would be amazing. 277 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.839 What did you have to do and what we're with some of the metrics 278 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.519 that you then had to see when it comes to how you even thought about 279 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.519 like attribution, when this is like the goal overall to get the consumer they 280 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.119 actually come in store. Yeah, I mean attributions very, very hard to 281 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:27.319 your point when you are not sending people to buy directly from you. So 282 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:32.960 you know, if you just think about something like an Instagram ad, which 283 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.200 you know we don't do, but if we did, what landing page are 284 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.799 we sending them to? If it's a store locator, then you know, 285 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.920 are we clocking how many people go to the store locator and then are we 286 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.440 then mapping how many visits to the store locator to the velocities in that particular 287 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.000 region. You know, it's it's kind of clunky. I think that we 288 00:20:52.119 --> 00:21:00.519 have made sort of an overarching thesis that someone who's walking into a foods are 289 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:06.160 sprouts or in Albertson's and they see this pouch of Chimmy Cherry and they are 290 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:10.160 like hey, what is that doing there, because they're not used to seeing 291 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:14.640 sauce in the fresh area. Be What the Hell is Chimmy Cherry see? 292 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:17.480 Why is it in a pouch and what do I do with that? There 293 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:22.200 are so many things that are confusing about our product. Of course, none 294 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.279 of these I like knew we're confusing in and I was like, Oh, 295 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.640 it's gonna be great, they'll figure it out. But we have so much 296 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:33.359 consumer education to do. It goes back to sort of like we never we 297 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.759 never thought we didn't have to do that. So we were trained very early 298 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:42.680 on that our job before someone walks into that store is that they have seen 299 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.759 this pouch and they've seen it's, you know, squeezed onto chicken or salmon 300 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.640 or a bowl and they have an idea of I know what to do with 301 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.400 that thing. I know it's going to make my life better and I'm excited 302 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:02.079 to try it. And then part B is it has to look great on 303 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.079 the shelf. It has to be, you know, there for them to 304 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.279 buy it. They have to have a great experience. Then they have to 305 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:11.000 be able to know what else they can do with it. So we don't 306 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:17.759 necessarily think of we kind of have one foot in sort of the digital camp 307 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.799 where, you know, we are trying to build awareness and we are trying 308 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.839 to bring people into sort of our brand love, as you would say. 309 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.119 But then we also have the second step of, you know, getting on 310 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:36.599 the shelf at any of these retailers is just step one and we we spend 311 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.160 a lot of time and energy and money making sure that our shopper marketing and 312 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:45.240 merchandising is working. So it's it's it's a little bit both cool that may 313 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.160 thought says. I mean I guess it comes back to tie in in terms 314 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.759 of how you initially started, you know, haven's kitchen and that from that 315 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.680 whole consumer education piece and this is just another way that you have to re 316 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.519 educate consumers and everything, and in this context, more about how you can 317 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:06.640 use your sauces to me create obviously delicious meals from it. Why did you 318 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.200 decide on the packaging side to go with pouches instead of a jar? Number 319 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.359 One, sustainability. You know, we again, this is my background, 320 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:21.240 and flexible packaging is just a no brainer when it comes to metrics around sustainability, 321 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.440 energy use, water use, fuel use, you know, emissions Um 322 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.599 even if it does end up in landfill, it just takes up so much 323 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:34.160 less time and space than not time but space. Then glass, and unfortunately, 324 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.319 you know, people think glasses the answer to everything, but you know, 325 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.839 about twenty percent of the glass that you put into the recycling bin is 326 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.920 actually recycled. The rest does actually end up in landfill. So, you 327 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.359 know, in terms of a life cycle study, pouches are by far the 328 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.559 most sustainable packaging option. They're not perfect. Again, it's choices, right. 329 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.240 There is no perfect so that was one and then the other was really 330 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.599 again about like how do people, you know, how do people use these 331 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.000 things? What's going to give people the most joyful experience? You know, 332 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.079 is it like shaking something? Is it scooping something, or is it squeezing 333 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.359 something? You know, and I've told this story before, but my mom 334 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:21.759 is a retired, you know, speech pathologist, but she's a painter and 335 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.119 every time I would go into her like little painting studio, I would just 336 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:32.519 squeeze these pouches of paint like they were beautiful and they were so tactile and 337 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.079 I would have this like little thought like maybe I should be a painter, 338 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:40.240 maybe I'm actually a painter and I didn't know it and I have all this 339 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:45.319 creative stuff inside me and I am definitely not a painter, but it gave 340 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.559 me this feeling like I'm in kindergarten again and I don't have to be worried 341 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:55.759 about making something good. I can just play and it'll be good because I'll 342 00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.240 enjoy it. And if we can give people that feeling when they're king, 343 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.000 you know, I don't have to worry about the tablespoon or the teaspoon and 344 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.400 I don't have to stress about am I adding too much, like all I 345 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.160 get to do is squeeze this because I like it and it's pretty and it 346 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.160 makes me feel happy. That's the kind of feeling I want people to have, 347 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.839 because that's the feeling that keeps bringing the back. You know, no, 348 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.519 I mean totally. I mean as well, it looks. I mean 349 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:26.000 maybe it's another point. It looks very different to other sausage from a packaging 350 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:27.960 perspective, which, of course, in retail is is huge. Yeah, 351 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:34.400 I didn't know that part as much. I read a book like in Twenty 352 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:41.960 by Debbie millman called brand thinking and I realized actually that there was something that 353 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:45.559 that piece of the pouch was also kind of cool that if you're looking at, 354 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.799 you know, the produce set and you see these pouches, even if 355 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:55.839 you can't read haven's kitchen, you probably are starting to recognize us just by 356 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:59.880 the pouch, which is kind of cool. Not to make us more iconic 357 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.839 that we are, but eventually maybe we'll be kind of iconic. But you 358 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:07.279 know that there. I I didn't know that it was so, you know, 359 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:14.519 form factor distinction. I would be lying if I said that that was, 360 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.799 um, you know, part of my thinking at the time. It 361 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.400 wasn't. I know right now you're in the natural channel whole foods and I 362 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.440 here some other groceries. I mean, is the plan eventually to go conventional 363 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.079 as well? And in terms of the conventional side, I love to kind 364 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.599 of hear your perspective of what's been happening on the conventional side, because it 365 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.759 seems like natural and conventional has kind of blurred a bit and how you think 366 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.160 about your pricing heading into conventional when you do. Yeah, I mean so 367 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:47.039 it's funny because you know our you know, our biggest account as whole foods 368 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.000 sprouts, is a really great one for us. You know, we are 369 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.359 in what I would call sort of like progressive conventional right in the sense that, 370 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.039 you know, Vaughan's pavilions, etcetera. Like we're in a bunch of 371 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:04.720 technically not natural channel doors, but they're not. They're definitely they are focused 372 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:10.960 on innovation, they're focused on, you know, younger, newer consumers, 373 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:14.720 you know, keeping up with sort of what's going on in the Zeitgeist. 374 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.480 Um. But we also in launched in six targets and you know, the 375 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.279 rule of thumb had always been like if you're you know, if your chimney 376 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.519 chair is doing an eight and whole foods, it'll do a four in, 377 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.039 you know, conventional and it will do it, you know, to in 378 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.119 target. That has not been the case for us. So it's certainly not 379 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.720 par, you know, but it's not that much of a delta. So 380 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:44.799 what we figure pretty early is it's not necessarily, you know, all the 381 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.079 channel I mean, you know, channels are blurring. Who knows what they 382 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.920 are anymore, and there are people that are launching brands and in Walmart, 383 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:55.640 you know, whereas that used to be just like the last bastion. So 384 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.359 who the hell knows what's going on. But I will say that, you 385 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:06.000 know, again going back to if you have a strong gross margin and you 386 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:11.000 can price yourself well, you know there's going to be and it has nothing 387 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:12.319 to do with us. There's going to be a range. We're going to 388 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:18.160 be five forty nine at some retailers, we're going to be eight nine at 389 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:22.319 other retailers, and that is not because of our retail you know, our 390 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.960 distributor pricing. That's because of the secondary distributor, you know, the little 391 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.160 market that pays more rent or whatever it is, even target. Some of 392 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.079 them were, of them were eight ninety nine literally. But if we can 393 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:38.720 make ourselves sort of whole, you know, starting at the very beginning by 394 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:44.400 having like a good product margins to begin with, and we can have the 395 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.599 mix. So some of those accounts are more awareness builders, some of them 396 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.880 were volume drivers. You know, we're thoughtful about the mix and again, 397 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:57.319 we're proving value Um to the consumer and we can work with, you know, 398 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:02.440 buyers that we have good relation ships with to sort of Eke back for 399 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.279 the consumer what we need to if they end up having to, you know, 400 00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:11.039 price us a little bit more expensively, and I think also just being 401 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.960 a premium product. And again, that goes beyond we're expensive. It really 402 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:21.319 means we are making your life better. We have a better ingredient panel than 403 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.759 any sauce out there. We are giving you lots and lots of ideas and 404 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.680 inspiration. You know, we're helping you in the kitchen. In other ways, 405 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.039 people are over and over, they were in two thousand one, they 406 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.119 were in two thousand eight. People are willing to pay for value. It's 407 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.319 not just about price. That said, you can't be a ten dollar sauce 408 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:47.680 and and work in conventional grocery. It's just not going to work. So 409 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.400 there's always going to be a limit. But at the same time, what 410 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.640 you're saying is that people, even during, you know, tough times like 411 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.039 thousand one or two thousand and eight, people are still going to pay for, 412 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:00.400 you know, products that they love. Yeah, I think products that 413 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:06.880 make their lives better. You know, I mean condiments, especially its sauces, 414 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:12.200 condiments, marinades dressings in both of the past economic downturns have had great 415 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.599 results, and it's partly because, you know, people are swapping the night 416 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.799 out for the night in. And how do I have an experience at home 417 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.160 that still makes me feel kind of special if I'm not going to a restaurant. 418 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.920 Oh, you know what, this beautiful Golden Tahini. It's kind of 419 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:32.319 you know, feels kind of like I went out. You know, that 420 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:36.359 kind of thing. It's it's the way that people experience global flavors. It's 421 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.759 the way people try new things get out of a Rut Um. Tends to 422 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:44.640 be good for our category. What do you think is maybe what part of 423 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.720 billion a CPG company? That you think might be misunderstood from anyone out there 424 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:55.200 this list? I think that people say a lot, and I say it 425 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.920 too. They say building a brand. You're not just building a brand, 426 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:04.160 you're building a business, and I think that the last couple of years have 427 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:11.920 been very much focused on that brand piece and maybe the back end. Everyone 428 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:15.119 was, you know, I dot figure itself out like Oh, this will 429 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:19.759 get better with volume, you know, but things don't necessarily get better with 430 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:25.640 volume and I think that people need to. You know, it's something that 431 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:30.599 I just I think, because I was an operator and like a very tactile 432 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.799 brick and mortar operator. Um, you know, I had to learn the 433 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.000 marketing stuff and of course I had to learn the business stuff of this particular 434 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.759 industry. But the idea that you could just put something really delicious in a 435 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:53.039 really great package and market it on Instagram for relatively not that much, I 436 00:31:53.079 --> 00:32:00.920 think was a little bit of a false lulling of um CPG founders in the 437 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:06.119 last couple of years and I think this is going to be when we really 438 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:10.559 need to figure out the back end business parts of, you know, of 439 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:15.319 these companies. You know, do they work? That's a great point in 440 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:17.599 the business. I mean Um, I'd imagine referring to obviously, like what 441 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:21.440 are your ghost margins? How is it going to be sustainable in the long 442 00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:23.400 term? Yeah, and the sales mix. Again, you know, is 443 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.920 every account you know working and how do you measure the success of an account? 444 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:34.359 The way that you measure success at target is totally a thousand times different 445 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.000 than the way you measure success at whole foods, which is totally different from 446 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.880 how you measure success on Amazon, and you know, like everything has to 447 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:46.279 be very deliberate, especially now, because all of a sudden, you know, 448 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:51.119 a lot of people had had a lot of folks behind them saying, 449 00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:52.519 Oh, well, you know, we're we're here for you, we'll give 450 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:54.799 you the time to figure it out, you'll figure it out. And then 451 00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:59.599 all of a sudden they're calling those folks and they're like what are you know, 452 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:00.880 when are you're going to be profitable? And they're like, you've never 453 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:05.960 asked me that question ever, like you've literally never asked me that question in 454 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.720 the last four years. Now all of a sudden you care, like what 455 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.839 just happened? You know, it's a weird time in that respect. But 456 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.160 the good news is a lot of people have gotten sort of over that initial 457 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:21.079 there is a product market fit, there is something there, there's there's a 458 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.599 nugget, you know, and now it's just like, okay, build the 459 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:27.640 back end to really support it and and then wait for this, you know, 460 00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.640 ship storm to pass and then we'll all be in great shape. My 461 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.880 final question to you is, what's what book is very personally in one book 462 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:42.000 that's very professionally. On the personal side, there's a book by Virginia Woolf 463 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.519 called a room of one zone. It kind of changed my life. I'll 464 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:50.240 leave it at that. On the professional side, I think it really was 465 00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:54.160 the Debbie millman book brand thinking, because again, she interviews all of these 466 00:33:54.200 --> 00:34:01.039 people, really digging into what makes a brand and what Red Sates and how 467 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:07.239 does that manifest itself in design and how is design and brand connected? But 468 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.840 not the same thing. So I just it really it taught me about young 469 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.559 and archetypes, you know, which is really fun and really a cool brand 470 00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:21.239 exercise to do as a brand, you know. So I would say that 471 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.840 one cool. I'm so excited to add these two to our book list because 472 00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:28.400 I do not think anyone's brought these two ups. So excited to also read 473 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.920 them as well. Alison, thank you so much for coming on the show. 474 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:32.960 I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. It was 475 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.760 really fun, awesome and there you have it. It was a pleasure chatting 476 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.039 with Alison. I hope you all enjoyed it. If you enjoyed this episode, 477 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.760 I love it if you'd write a review on the apple podcast. You're 478 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.280 also welcome to follow me your host, Mike, on twitter at Mike Gel 479 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:58.639 and also follow for episode announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening, everyone. 480 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:10.239 What did they go and, all, what they make? What did the go