Transcript
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Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael,
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and on this show we talked about
the world of venture capital and innovation in
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both consumer technology and consumer products.
If you're enjoying this content, you could
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subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer
VC DOT sub stackcom, to get each
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new episode and more consumer news delivered
straight to your inbox. Our guest today
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is Jacky fast, managing partner at
Sandbox Studios. Sandbox studios is a next
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generation venture capital firm which addresses the
challenge of funding and collaboration expertise for celebrity
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owned products. She's also well known
for pounding the agency sling shot sponsorship,
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which she started from her bedroom of
two thousand pounds and a laptop and created
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a multimillion dollar global powerhouse working with
Rolling Stones Sir Richard Branson. On this
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episode we discuss when it makes sense
for a company or a founder to partner
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with a celebrity and the intersection of
talent and entrepreneurship, especially when it comes
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to consumer brands. Without further ADO, here's Jackie. Jackie, thank you
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so much for joining me today.
How are you doing? I am very
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excited to be here. Thanks so
much, Mike, it's an absolute plea
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measure heaving you on. I am
so excited to to have a chat.
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This is going to be fun.
So when you and I first spoke,
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we talked about how you start off
your career in London. But why?
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Didn't know? What was your initial
attraction to London? How did you get
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there and why'd you end up leaving
Canada? So I usually like to tell
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people that I went to Europe to, like, you know, pursue other
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venues. The truth is I was
very young and I got in a fight
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with my boyfriend and I bought the
cheapest ticket out of Canada to the English
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speaking country that I could find when
I was drunk at three in the morning
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and my mother told me that I
needed to sleep it off and see if
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that was really the right decision,
and I just kind of went with it
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and honestly, it was the best
thing I ever did. But it was
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very unplanned, as is most of
the decisions in my life, if I'm
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honest, and then I've just made
the made the best of Ed and,
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like I said, I mean moving
to London was the best thing I ever
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did. Amazing, amazing. So
why was it the best thing that ever
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happened to you? Well, I
grew up in a small suburb outside of
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Vancouver, Canada, and you know, it was a great childhood experience,
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but the exposure to like how the
world works was limited. I think I
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had just graduated university. Most of
my friends were wanting to be teachers,
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nurses or waitresses and that wasn't really
what I wanted to do. But the
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truth of the matter is I didn't
know what I wanted to do. So
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when I landed in London, backpack
in hand, you know, to see
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the world, it really was frightening
how much stuff I did, like the
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financial industry, I had never even
heard about, and just the experience with
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people that were maybe slightly educated in
a different way, exposure to Europe and
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it just opened up a whole new
world of like entrepreneurship that I was never
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exposed to as a child. That's
amazing. So was the initial plan when
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he got to London was to actually
go and see the world and maybe like
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London was like the first stop for
that and then you kind of got sucked
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into London or like what was kind
of like the thinking once you landed?
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So the idea was I was going
to backpack ere okay, for two months.
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So I arrived with backpack and I
had heard that you could work,
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you didn't have to pay rent if
you worked at a pub. So my
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very first stop in London is,
and this is like Super Hilarious to most
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people who know me, I lived
in the back of a shed in tuting
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Broadway and a tuting runaway pub,
which is like a dodgy place in London,
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in February, which is like five, and I used to sleep with
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like a space heater in at a
sleeping bag, and that's kind of where
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I started out. And the idea
was I would go to Spain and Italy
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and all of these things. But
the truth of the matter is I landed
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in London and I really immediately fell
in love with it and I managed to
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see all of those wonderful places kind
of over a time, but I you
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know, I landed in London loved
it. I stayed at the pub job
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for like only three weeks. Then
I became a receptionist that a gym until
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I kind of figured out my way
and eventually got a job as a sponsorship
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manager, and that's kind of how
it all started. Yeah, that's that's
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a maazing. That's amazing. So
how did you get into sponsorships? I
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mean, I know that you kind
of tease it by saying that you became
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a spartnership manager after you were receptionist, but was there like initial attraction to
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spotnorship, or are you just kind
of like, I just need money to
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survive and just got I'll kind of
go with D with kind of anything that
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kind of pays the bills? I
was on a working holiday visa in London
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and I desperately needed a visa and
so I was. I had to happen
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to do some contract jobs for our
coming called the Di Direct Marketing Association and
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they had a job as an events
manager come up and I said, well,
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if I applied for this and I
got it, would you get me
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my visa? And they said well, maybe, why don't you come for
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an interview? So I bombed the
interview, not not because I couldn't do
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the job, just I didn't really
want to, and I think they sussed
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that out and after three days the
marketing director kind of caught me in the
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hallway. He said, I see
that you have sponsorship in your title.
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Would you be a sponsorship manager and
I said, like, I see that
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you have sponsorship in your CV.
Would you be a sponsored manager? And
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I said, well, does it
come with a visa? And he said
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Yeah, if you're a sponsorship if
you take this job, it will,
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and I was like done at that
point. I had never understood what sponsorship
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was. This the word, the
title sponsorship was in my resume because I
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had worked previously at a golf resort
and I was doing the marketing role and
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a girl doing the same role didn't
want the same title as me and so
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they gave me the role of sponsorship, even though I was never doing sponsorship.
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And so my first job and sponsorship. I had no experience, no
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clue, had no idea what I
was doing and so frantically went home and
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googled what is sponsorship and how do
I do sponsorship, and and that you
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know, and that's kind of how
I got the job. They gave me
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a visa, but I think because
I was so nervous about doing a bad
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job and also not just doing a
bad job. I would do bad job
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and I would lose my visa,
I really overcompensated. My first target was
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fiftyzero pounds in the first year I
brought in a hundred eighty three thousand pounds
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and then by the third year I
was bringing in half a million. So,
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although I didn't know what sponsorship was, but I took the job,
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I was, you know, hell
bent on keeping my visa and I managed
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to create really new model of sponsorship
which kind of paved the way for me
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launching sling shot. That's amazing.
So talked us a little bit about what
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spontorship is, maybe like what like
a day day life is, with thoughts
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of how you were helping brands or
partner with brandy. I think that would
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be also really helpful. So,
as a fundamental sponsorship is effectively tapping into
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somebody else's audience, and it's really
base crap way. It would be like
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a logo on your favorite Football Jersey
like that, that is and that's brand
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awareness. So it typically is for
Browns who are trying to, you know,
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keep things front of mine and Cocacola
at the board level, and this
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is a true statement from the like
chief marketing officer from Cocacola. They used
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to do their sponsorship. Thesis was
we like Your Shit, so you should
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drink our ship. That was their
tangle of sponsorship and they used to like
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last cocacola logos everywhere, to be
associated with things that people like. And
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the truth is it works because it's
brand awareness and it makes things front mine.
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So going back, it's basically you
typically you your trading a logo for
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association with something, an exposure to
another audience. In terms of my day
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to day job, I worked with
both brands and talent. With talent or
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properties, I would go get sponsors. So if you were a football team
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or a hockey team or baseball team
or whatever, you would hire me and
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I would kind of decide what's the
most valuable asset? Is it the front
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a shirt? Is it the box? How is that packaged up? What
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is the cost of that? And
then I take that out to your cocacola's,
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pepsicolas Diagios of the world and sell
the sponsorship with my talent clients.
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So I worked with the rolling stones, which a brands, and Elton John.
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I would be tasked with typically helping
them commercialize things like their tour and
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so that that's kind of what I
did. So I mean a lot of
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the time, I mean daytoday I
was like really, it was very sales
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focused, but it's also really heavily
creative and understanding how to leverage partnerships.
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But the best part of my job
is by the time it comes to said
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festival or football game or whatever the
case is, my job is done.
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So I usually just get drunk backstage
at like really great events. That's like
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the truth that that's like a true
statement. That was my job and my
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clients will attest to that and I
was very good at my job. But
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that's great, though, because I
mean, like, unlike a lot of
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people's jobs in entertainment or at events, that night at the event, that's
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really when your actual job begins,
right, that's actually usually entertainment, your
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Fridays, your Monday right, and
so it's the fact that you actually could
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actually enjoy yourself at these events because
you've actually done all the work, you've
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got the placement right, you brought
the partnership together. That's amazing. And
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so talking a little about slingshot and
what led you to start your own spontnorship
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company. So similar again, it's
like getting a flight to London. I
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probably would have stayed at my previous
job as a sponsorship manager for a longer,
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but what happened is the marketing director
who hired me moved on and they
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hired a new CEO and a job
for a commercial director came up and I
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applied for it because I and,
quite frankly, in hinds, that I
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should have gone it. I was
turned down because I was told I didn't
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have enough experience, even though I
was the second person bringing in the most
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revenue of the entire company, and
there's seventy five people there. But that's
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by the by. But what really
arked me is that they then hired a
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guy to this day, is probably
the worst person I've ever worked with,
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and I get interviewed all the time
and I say this like all the time
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and he's never like ever reached out
to be like I'm really sorry, but
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no, he was the worst person
I've ever worked with. He would be
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so bad that you would pitch him
an idea and he'd forgot that you pitched
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it to him and then tell you
the next morning, like don't you think
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I'm so clever? And I am
not one to hold my tongue and I
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do not last very long and after
a pretty large fight, I stormed out
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then went to try to find and
at that point I was in the UK.
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That was my only experience working in
London. So, I mean I
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had to keep going in sponsorship because
that's all I oh, I had done,
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and there were only seven agencies at
the time in London who did sponsorship.
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I applied for every single one of
them. Nobody would even take a
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meeting with me because what I was
doing was corporate sponsorship. What they were
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doing a sports sponsorship, and so
I set up a slingshot sponsorship really with
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the idea that I wanted to make
enough money to pay rent. I think
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my business plan was I wanted to
make eighty three thousand pounds a year or
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eighty onezero pounds a year. It
was its minimal and again, not disimber
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till like being worried about keeping my
visa, you know. I just I
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really grafted and we ended up winning
some credible clients. Prince was one of
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my first clients and we just kind
of nailed that out of the water.
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And the seven companies of the seven
companies I tried to get a job with
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that didn't interview me, two of
them I almost bought at one point.
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Two of them one under and one
of them tried to buy us or I
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almost sold to one of them.
So yeah, it's a pretty incredible story.
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The value of sling show was is
that we did everything from like sustainability
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conferences. I did a TV show
in Ghana. Did help them find like
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sponsorships for that. You know,
one of one of my favorite clients is
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Richard Branson. We did a bunch
of blockchain events for him in two thousand
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and fourteen, when that was kind
of like hitting it big and understanding how
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to commercialize those. So the skill
set is I mean the sectors were super
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diverse, which really plays into what
I do now, because I've literally had
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exposure in shoes, t shirts,
alcohol, water, Brad S, the
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steinability, Bitcoin, Sass. Like
there's almost nothing I haven't touched. And
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it seems like because obviously we're going
to talk about fedger capital here in a
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second, it seems like you've done
an incredible job of billion your network and
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billion network very, very fast.
But how do you advise its me?
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VC is kind of also, it
seems like sponsorship a very, you know,
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network industry, very tight industry.
How do you go about or maybe
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some like piece of advice around how
someone should like build their network quite as
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quickly as you did. I mean
honestly, the truth of the matter is
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is I have a one year old
baby now and things things I probably would
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have said pre baby, and also
pre pandemic or different and you know,
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before that I would say yes to
everything. You know, I attended all
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of the events and you know,
I tried to speak it as I mean,
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that's thing shot. I spoke a
kind of like any event that anybody
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wanted me to speak at, and
at that point, once I sold,
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I was like such a sought after
speaker I was able to charge a crazy
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amounts of money because I built but
I had built out that network of like
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this is, this is what I
talked about and people loved to hear me
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speak. You know, it also
helps him a woman in a male dominated
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industry. You know, people want
to see the diversity. So I would
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say go to as many things as
possible and now I would say, like
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really lean into the connectors, you
know, the people that have better network.
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So I am a connector and if
you would have hit me up in
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London, there's not anybody I didn't
know. So you know, if you
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let it in London and you had
a coffee usually, and this is the
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other thing, like you take me
out for a drink, I will go.
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It doesn't matter who you are.
If you offer me free alcohol,
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I will show up. I love
a glass of wine. And then it's
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those people that are like, Oh, this person's doing this and I can
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connect them. And so I think
my new strategy now is really like,
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I don't have as much time as
I used to do, so now I
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just like really focus on where I
spend my time. So you sell slingshot.
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What was your attraction with maybe early
stage companies and why did you want
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to head into VC and become an
investor? Well, it's actually, surprisingly,
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it's taken me a really long time
to get to where we are at
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now. When I sold in two
thousand and sixteen, it happened really quick
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and it was an amazing exit and
I'm so happy I did it. But
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you know, everybody was telling me, because I'm a bit of a work
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all, like take your time,
take your time, don't jump in and
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thing, don't jump in and into
anything, and I was like, I
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was still young and I made all
this money. I was like, of
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course not. I like spend two
thousand and eighteen, just like doing whatever
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I wanted to. went to burning
man, got married when on a TV
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show, like really crazy stuff,
and then kind of what I wanted to
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buckle down. I was really unsure
of what I wanted to do and I
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had seen other as you would,
I look at other people who have had
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exits and asked, like looked at
what they were doing, and they all
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tended to be angel investors, and
I said, how hard could that be?
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And without having ever had any experience
or even speaking to successful Angel Investors,
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which I should have done, I
decided to blow a lot of my
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money on startups, having never done
it before. So it was a big
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learning lesson. But because of what
I had done with sling shot and my
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background and the types of check sizes
I was writing, I was offered board
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positions and almost every single company I
invested in, and it was that experience
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that really led me to VC.
So I you know, I invested in
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a bunch of kind of I've got
a Fintech I've got to be to be
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advertising agency. I've got our Arma's
bag company in Asia, a very,
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very random stuff. Like I did
not have like a thesis. I was
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like, Oh, this founder,
sounds cool, this is a cool idea,
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let's do this, which was I
would never recommend. Actually, I
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think what I did was really bad, but also it's kind of given me
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the experience to do the VC fund
correctly. But as I was sitting around
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these tables, and truthfully, all
of them were men and three of them
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were from VC's three of them like
that. It was the founder, the
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CFO and somebody else, and nobody
seemed to really have the right questions around
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how to build a consumer brand.
And yet they all were sitting on a
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board of a consumer brand and it
was pretty shocking to me. And then,
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beyond that, I didn't understand that
venture capital was invested in a hundred
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companies. Wait till five break out
and then actually care about the five.
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And so I would be sitting in
these boards where people weren't really doing any
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work. And it came to a
blow. I got in a fight in
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one board room, which sounds through, which actually like. As I'm saying.
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It sounds ridiculous, but I remember
they were talking about launching a new
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product or skiw or something, and
I said, what did your what are
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your previous customers have to say?
And I remember distinctly one of the venture
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capitalists across the table rolling his eyes, like here she goes again, she's
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going to take more time up on
our board room, and I like looked
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at him as I do you have
a problem? And he said, well,
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you know, I think they've covered
the numbers. I was like listen,
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if they can't answer this, went
to the CEO. Is like what
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did your customers say? Is like, well, what do you mean?
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I said, what did your customers
say? So will how would we know?
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I'm like you ask them and they're
like, well, how would we
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do that? I'm like you've got
their phone number, don't you? And
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then I was just like okay,
listen, I'm going to come in on
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Tuesday morning. I'll come in with
your junior team, I'll write a script,
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I'll do old like all do,
like thirty calls. You can like
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get a sample of like this is
how we get feedback from our customers to
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like grow the product and stuff.
And what happened is that these moments happened
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with like the six investments that I
made and I was working six full days
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a week junior level positions because nobody
else wanted to do it, and and
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I was going crazy and my husband
finally sat me down after six months and
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it was like you need to stop, you need to make a plan,
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like you're so much more stressed out. And not only was I not getting
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paid, I had paid for the
luxury to work and like account executive roles,
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right, because I was an investor, but I was the only one
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who seemed to care about it.
And so I kind of took a step
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back and was like, how do
I do this in a more effective way?
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And the the solution was really like
I need to hone in on what
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I'm good at, and I'm very
good. I am like the best in
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the field for sponsorship and partnerships and
talent. And Fortunately, at that time,
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which was last year, you know, the growth of talent owned brands.
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So Your Cast Amigos Aviation Gin beats
by dre grown exponentially. You know,
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now it's almost you don't see any
dy to see brand without talent attached
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to it. And so we kind
of honed in on that very strong,
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very specific thesis and we launched.
Launched with that, but I mean it
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was it was a three year process, I would say, to get to
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this point. He talked about that
a little bit more in terms of the
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actual thesis and what you mean by
talent be part of the company or talent
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led or talent led companies. So
at first I want to clarify and like
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so, I was in a call
earlier this morning. When I say talent,
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I don't talk hr so it's it's
celebrities with brands. Just just for
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like all the listeners out there.
But so sandbox studios. The fund exclusively
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invest in talent led brands. What
that means is the business itself needs to
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be driven and look at customer acquisition
and distribution through talent now in it's in
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the way that most people would understand
it. Honest Company Jessica Alba, Goop,
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one if Paul True, beats by
Dre Dr Dre like. These are
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companies that are cofounded with celebrities who
are effectively entrepreneurs who have decided to look
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at a different venture. Talent led
also can be businesses that are driven and
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their execution and their product is talent. So the cameo is a talent led
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business, but not owned by a
celebrity, for instance. And the reason
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that we hone in on this is
because venture capital is trying to crack this.
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So people in my position, especially
super senior people in my position a
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never going to venture. But also
be like, there aren't a lot of
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us. It's a really cool job. It's very hard to crack into.
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So somebody who has grown up,
built a business, sold a business in
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sponsorship, like you'll find like seven
people globally who's done who've done that.
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So and then to have something like
that venture. So that gives us a
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huge USP on every venture fund out
there and we're the only fund at seed
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who does it because we're the only
ones who can evaluate it. And and
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to your point, like different to
my angel investing, when like cool idea,
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like like the founder, we're now
meticulous. So we've seen since September
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we've seen ninety six talent, let's
startups raising and we've invested in five companies.
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What you're working with actual talent that's
part of the company. I co
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found of the company. Do they
are already need to be part of the
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company order for to attract your interest, or could a company a consider better
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poach you and say, Hey,
we have this amazing brand, but we
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but we're looking for maybe like a
face of the brand or someone that may
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be interested in partnering and with that, for example, be of interest to
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you, even though they don't have
their may be looking for talent to be
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part of the band or maybe have
a relationship with, but that's actually not
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the current state of the company.
So to answer that question is like twofold.
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Yes, I can do all of
that. And there is one company
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that we are investing in that I
pulled in a celebrity that I know very
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well. So because of my networks
in my relationships, it's very easy for
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me to pick up the phone.
However, if I, if we kind
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of went out and said that,
I would never have any time. So
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going to like, well, just
like I where, you know, I'm
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like a solo GP right. So
our fund is only fifteen million. We've
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seen ninety six talent led start us. Is All of a sudden I'm starting
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to open up looking at cool brands. I just I mean, I wouldn't
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have any time. So our fund
will only invest when there's talent. Now
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we have an agency because this keeps
coming up like great product, great founder.
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Love it, but our fund thesis
is we only invest in talent.
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So we have an agency team that
it's kind of mixed with xca, Xuta,
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x, kind of like music label
people that kind of work with brands
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to strategize. And I will say
like it's not beneficial for every brand.
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Talent isn't a magic bullet and I
think a lot of people kind of think,
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oh well, if George, if
Brian Reynolds invested in this and you
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know, well, we'll have like
a billion dollar exit, and that's really
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not the case. And so really
understanding why talent is the most important part.
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What do you think is the biggest
misconception when you have talents part of
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a company? It could be like
the relationship between all the brand it could
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be maybe what a town actually brings
the brand. But I would just love
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to hear from your perspectives that you've
talked to hundreds of thought thousands of entrepreneurs
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that of course, many of which
probably want talents to be part of their
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brand. What are maybe questions that
they should be asking themselves to see if
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it actually is like a ballad fit. So two misconceptions and they're totally opposite,
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which is weird. One is talent
are are useless and very risky.
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That's a really big misconception and to
say, and I mean my clients were
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like prints in the rolling stones.
So, like you know, you can
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manage and mitigate risk very easily and
that the benefits always out way, almost
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always out way. So that is
a misconception. The other the other is
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the opposite. Like to my point, I think people just assume if they
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had star power then their business is
going to be like wildly successful. And
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going back to like cassimigoes, I
really like. I like to use castom
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because George Cluney isn't the reason it
was super successful. It was a combination
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of a bunch of things, but
fundamentally their product hit the right market at
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the right time with the right price
and they have the right distribution network in
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order to get that out there,
which is why it kind of kind of
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work like that. So for brands
that are in exceptionally cluttered spaces. So
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booze is an obvious one. Booze, water, coffee, things that you
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like consume that maybe product differentiation doesn't
matter as much, food snacks, any
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of that kind of stuff. Like
you when you go and look at a
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proto in Bar, there's like fifty
of them. Aside from price what's the
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other thing you're going to think about? Right? It's cut through. There
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have been actually a couple brands that
have approached us that are like really great
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brands, and one of them actually
one of them that you know. So
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they are really, really heavily wanting
to do and actually one of them that's
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been on your podcast really wanting to
do talent and when we kind of broke
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it down, there was no good
reason. So they're very different in the
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market. Nobody ever will be the
same as them. They don't even have
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enough products to sell. They keep
selling out every time and I'm like,
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why are you looking to give ten
percent of your business to somebody who's not
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going to move the deal? Because
there's nowhere to move the needle. You
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don't even have products to sell,
and so like you got to really think
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strategically about what you're looking to do. I appreciate the thought. So the
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two misconceptions is that there's maybe one
camp that thinks that talent is underrated and
377
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then one camp that thinks the talent
is very overrated, right, like useless,
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risky, as you say. But
when that's not the case and it
379
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seems like talent works well, it
may be like commodity type products. I
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don't mean like, yes, there's
like differentiation and like the different types of,
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00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:07.720
you know, booze and what have
you, but it could be that
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if it's more like a commodity,
there's really not that much difference overall in
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the product than like talent could really
really be helpful, helpful and really leverage
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00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:19.920
it. And when does it make
sense, though, because you got up
385
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:26.319
a really good point after you said
that about differentiator products and how, when
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you do have differentiate your products is
can't talent still work when you do have
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differential product, like does it actually
make sense or to the product be?
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00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:37.680
On the other hand, since I
just woke up, a commodity, what
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00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.799
do you have? Differentiator products?
Does it still make sense, or could
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it still make sense to actually partner
with talent? So I am of the
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camp, and I have always been, that talent will get your business and
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00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:52.480
your product farther than no talent,
always, every single time, if you
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know what you're doing. So if
you don't know what you're doing, that
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goes out the window. But,
like, I have built my entire career
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creating the right partnerships for brands from
foot one hundred brands to start up brands
396
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.640
and every single time, if you
know what you're doing, it gets you
397
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.799
farther, faster, cheaper often,
and so it always makes sense. Now
398
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.880
it's what you're prepared to pay.
Right like I'm a founder. I have
399
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:18.640
this. I guess you can't really
count the fund is my job, but
400
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I have founded two businesses, one
of which I exited, the other as
401
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.839
a vineyard, which is still successful
today. As a founder, I don't
402
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.640
like to give away equity. I
sold my first business. I owned a
403
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.039
hundred percent of it. I'm very, very funny about wanting to keep my
404
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.079
equity and I would probably do that
at the cost of growth. That's probably
405
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.759
not a smart thing to do.
So you've got to kind of think about
406
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.279
what it what you want really,
but a hundred percent their talent is always
407
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the answer if you know what you're
doing. I've got really two great examples.
408
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.319
The one that I like to use
a lot because most people are familiar
409
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:56.359
with it as beats by Dre so
you know you've most people seen the documentary,
410
00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.000
but have it really looked at like
why the brand blew up so much?
411
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.519
Now there's a whole bunch of reasons. Authenticity really is, for me,
412
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.359
the first starting point. So in
the show, Jimmy Irving's like,
413
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.119
why would you do sneaker as?
Why you a speakers whatever? It's like
414
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.240
a good shift in in kind of
the idea of it. The truth is
415
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:18.160
Dr Dre is an expert in sound. He's a producer at heart. He
416
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:23.920
understands music and differentiation and and what
sounds good. So he has an expertise
417
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.400
that lends into beats. Then you
look at Jimmy and he's got the network.
418
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.799
So then it's like an awareness funnel. So a the product starts with
419
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.200
something that people heat like. There's
an expert in sound creating something that is
420
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.160
sound. He's he's also a celebrity. That kind of helps Jimmy Iov and
421
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.359
then has the network of celebrities who
just like where it doesn't matter if it
422
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.920
works or it doesn't work, and
so it's the funnel of awareness through talent.
423
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.920
But a product that is it is
on point, is authentic and is
424
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.079
a good, good product. That
is why that worked as well as it
425
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.480
did. Now, conversely, codeap
pictures great example with Lady Gaga. Lady
426
00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:04.279
Gaga, you know, you'd almost
say Kodak was really ahead of the curve,
427
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.680
which is so crazy for an antiquated, very old, traditional company,
428
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.759
right, but they did. They
were one of the first. They signed
429
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.079
Lady Gaga. She was the creative
director of CODAP. She was super hot
430
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.400
at the time, new audience,
millennial. It sounds good on paper,
431
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:25.240
but lady Gaga doesn't care about cameras. Is Not like, interested in the
432
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:29.759
technical aspect of it's not interested.
She doesn't like her picture taken like base
433
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.960
six small things. She's not authentically
going to be interested in that. She
434
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.240
took the money, like what the
press launched, etc. Now that wouldn't
435
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:41.839
be a problem if Kodek knew had
to leverage it. There is now an
436
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:47.039
opposing there's differing objectives. So Lady
Gogan wants the paycheck. She kind of
437
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.079
did that. She feels like her
job is done. Codacs like this didn't
438
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:53.839
work, because your face has not
helped us shift more cameras. And what
439
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.880
happens is they're both fighting because they
need more time from her. She feels
440
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.319
like she's given all of the time
because she doesn't care. If she cared
441
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.319
about it, it would be different. Lady Agar recently launched House laboratories,
442
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:08.599
which is her beauty line. Lady
Guga actually cares about it. She is
443
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.839
in the love she created, the
colors she wears, the makeup. She's
444
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:15.839
interested in the looks. Like you
know, she goes out, she like
445
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:22.000
dolls herself up. She is very
interested in changing her persona to feet.
446
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.319
That her mood. That fits with
the beauty line. So in three years
447
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.880
down the road, when like House
laboratories and Lady Gaga's doing something else,
448
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:30.680
house are like, listen, you
need to come and do this thing.
449
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.200
Why don't we get on board?
What kind of lipstick you care about?
450
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.039
She'll take that. Meaning is her
great examples. I think what's interesting to
451
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.960
is in the two examples where it
was successful, House and beats of course
452
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.680
the talent, the celebrities, that
of the companies, whereas Kodak, I
453
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.079
would imagine she can get equity for
Lady Gaga for being a spokesperson or for
454
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.240
being part of Kodak. So my
question to you, just based off those
455
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:57.640
examples, how important is it for
batters that are looking at talent for them
456
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:03.079
to actually be part of a company
in some ways and equity or not?
457
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.359
I love that. That's a very
good question and something I don't talk about
458
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.920
enough. But you're a hundred percent
right. I don't think it's important and
459
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.880
jury and I think that's crazy.
I don't think it's important at all.
460
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:18.680
So my atsling shot. We never
did equity because equity deals never happened.
461
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.319
I talked to my kinds about doing
equity all the time because I was like
462
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.519
started up. It was like fine, if people are like all right,
463
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:27.000
Jackie, just do your thing because
it's too it's convoluted, like you have
464
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:30.079
to set up another business, then
they like how many shares you got to
465
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.519
get the legals? It's so I'm
I only, only only ever did sponsorship
466
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:40.200
and our partnerships were insane. They
sold so much of we work with start
467
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:44.319
our runs, we work with like
Hyenda. The the results on a great
468
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:48.400
partnership that fits, that is authentic, or always the results. Equity,
469
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.680
I don't think is important. Where
equity comes into play is not on results,
470
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.119
it's on the actual transaction. So
if you are a startup, you
471
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.359
cannot pay, you do not have
enough capital to pay somebody the fee,
472
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.839
the talent feed that they would normally
charge, which is why all this equity
473
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.839
stuff is happening. It's not because
it's better, it's because it's what they
474
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.480
can afford. Those are really great
points. It just seems like if you're
475
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.920
celebrity and you actually copeound a company, it seems like you're probably going to
476
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.160
care more about that company. You
don't think so. Getting here about more
477
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.440
that company than an actual doing,
like an actual partnership or or spatnorship type
478
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.640
deal. You gotta remember, like
this is not their job. So different
479
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.079
to what of Paltrow and Jessica Alba, who's too, basically were like,
480
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:33.160
okay, after things, my side
hustle, but I'm passionate, like just
481
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.440
a Al Bo's passionate about baby products
that were natural because they were weren't any
482
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:41.680
and she started having kids and she's
like this is messed up and she literally
483
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.039
struggled getting into target because it was
like why is justic Alba creating a beauty
484
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.640
line? That's so weird. When
Paultro same deal, people are like nobody
485
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.359
cares about steaming your vagina. Gwyneth, like, calm down, calm down,
486
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:56.680
do another movie right that. This
is like, I mean they really
487
00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.759
paved the way for this. But
when I mean Natalie Portman started to shoe
488
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:04.200
company, like I mean I used
Code Act and maybe the codok was the
489
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.279
best one. There are loads of
hulks started a pass to company. I
490
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.240
mean I can give you like a
hundred examples where they were the sole owner.
491
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:16.200
I mean Mark Wahlburger is are great
example. Keeps launching companies that like
492
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:22.960
are really horrify run and don't go
anywhere. So owning, because you got
493
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:28.039
to remember these people are not entrepreneurs. They are actors, musicians, you
494
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:32.160
know, like whatever their talent and
their skill set is talent. They also
495
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:36.240
like lean into that. They that's
what they like doing. So when they
496
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.240
launched a shoe company, it's not
their skill set. Those are excellent points,
497
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:44.519
I mean excellent points about how they
aren't natural entrepreneurs. That' thought how
498
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.759
they made their money. That's what
how they made their mark on all of
499
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.880
us. It's not. It's not
through that. It's through whether it's acting
500
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.960
or or sports her or what have
you. And if you're a founder and
501
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.440
thinking about though, like partn with
talent, like what else should you kind
502
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.319
of like think about in that capacity
in terms of how much they should be
503
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:04.000
involved in the business like a celebrity, like should they not be? He'd
504
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.359
like all right, like we will
love you to be part of the company
505
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:08.119
and obviously, I guess you we
probably have to give you some equity,
506
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.759
since we can actually really afford you
at your price. But should you also
507
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.640
maybe have an attachment in terms of
okay, they're actually not going to be
508
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.839
part at all that operate this business
period. Well, if they're an equity
509
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.839
partner, that's their investment. So
I think that they should be as involved
510
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.559
as you would want them to be. But I also I mean this is
511
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.279
this is where the experience comes in. You have to know how to manage
512
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:36.799
that. You know, I've spent
a career managing talent and putting making sure
513
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:38.839
that they stay in their lane and
are happy to stay in their lane.
514
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.200
But one, I mean a great
example. We recently invest in a company
515
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.359
called Happy Sake Sprintzer. It's a
ready to drink seltzer with sake. It's
516
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:51.960
amazing. One of the CO founders
is Jordan barring, who's a male supermodal.
517
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.440
He is fabulous. He has all
these creative, crazy, I think,
518
00:33:55.480 --> 00:34:01.640
crazy ideas but like really tailored to
the Gen z audience and like the
519
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.519
his input is actually really valuable.
Doesn't mean we're going to do all of
520
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.800
it, but like, the more
that you get him engaged, the more
521
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.039
he's going to come up with the
opportunities and the more it's going to be
522
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.760
friend to mind, you know,
and that's what you want. What was
523
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:22.000
your method building relationships within the VC
community? I mean, I'm still doing
524
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:25.000
it, I think, so obviously
I would. I would love more.
525
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.440
I would. So any any introductions
anybody would like to make? We would
526
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.119
love to hear from you. It's
a very different industry than the one I've
527
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.960
worked in. Like that's the truth. You know, I'm in marketing and
528
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.760
advertising and I've and I've also done
that in Europe and now I've moved to
529
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:44.199
America into a completely different industry,
and so I've had to kind of work
530
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.440
harder. And going back to my
thing about finding connectors, I've I've managed
531
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:53.159
to find some really great people in
venture funds, where I'm very valuable to
532
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:58.400
people because if they're looking at investing
in something and they think that a talent
533
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.400
would be a good fit, I
can usually help them make that conversation happen.
534
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.960
So you know, I am able
to help where most people can in
535
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:10.199
certain specific in a specific area,
and that has proved useful and I didn't
536
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:15.519
understand before I launched a fund that
venture is very much you might be like
537
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:21.199
in venture funds are very small companies, but actually you're so reliant on your
538
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:27.320
venture network for deal flow and other
opportunities, and so I really value other
539
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:30.719
people in other venture funds that I've
made friends with in La and just in
540
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:37.519
America in general. What's one thing
you would change about beture capital? One
541
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:45.039
I think it's disgusting disappointing about women
in VC. And I don't just mean
542
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:52.119
fund managers, I also mean investors. So there are very few women who
543
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:57.880
will invest in funds and yet many
women who invest directly in female found in
544
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:02.679
brands like deodorant or for a face
cream, and I kind of get that,
545
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.119
but if you but like it's a
whole, my issue is that it's
546
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:10.000
a whole thing. Right. So
you don't have a lot of female fund
547
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.679
managers. I think last I checked
is four percent, and then the investors
548
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:19.360
that invest in that are like way
less than that. That are female investor.
549
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:22.679
LP's, my guesses, is a
lot less than that and it's a
550
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.960
lot less because there's no female fund
managers. So you're still and also I'm
551
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.760
not trying to like you know,
the truth of the matter is is VC
552
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:35.320
funds are the ones putting in money
in companies that are actually growing and scaling
553
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:37.480
and going to the next series.
And I'm not saying you can't take a
554
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.320
punt by putting five thousand dollars in
your neighbors like Deo during company, but
555
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.000
like, if you really want to
talk about diversity and make a change,
556
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:51.760
like you have to start being part
of the ecosystem. So that is something
557
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:55.599
I feel pretty strongly about. I
also do not like the the whole theory
558
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.000
and thesis with VC funds that you
invest in a hundred companies, you wait
559
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.199
for five to break out, you
sit on your ass and do nothing and
560
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.960
then you fund the other five,
because that relies on the idea of that
561
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:13.280
money is the only issue, that
is the only challenge for businesses and being
562
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.159
a entrepreneur myself, that is the
least thing. It's always top of mine
563
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.840
because it's super stressful. But money
is always for stuff and it's typically for
564
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.159
people or something else. And if
you do not have the people that are
565
00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.639
willing to back you, help you
make the introductions, make the like,
566
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:34.119
get your sales in like I did
go to the things start like doing scripts
567
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.920
for your junior people. You will
not have a growing business and I think
568
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.239
that Ben sure needs to stop being
so like las a fair about where their
569
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.000
investment dollars go and start putting real
effort in terms of their like experience consulting
570
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:51.039
a network. And I don't see
that happening. Yeah, those are two
571
00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:53.239
great points, really great points.
What's what book that is power do you
572
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:57.239
personally and what both as part you
professionally? Okay, so I've got really
573
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:02.159
weird answers for this. So so, on the first one, my husband
574
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:07.239
like reads voraciously and I used to
do as a child and then I just
575
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.199
don't have the time anymore. I
feel like I said everyone year baby.
576
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:14.320
I'm going to blame it on the
baby. But my personal book is I
577
00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:17.239
am pilgrim, not because of the
book, but it took him ten years
578
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:21.000
to write it and it was like
I think it's one of the last kind
579
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.400
of books out there and I just
I love that. I love like the
580
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:30.199
long graft and I love, you
know, I think there's really something to
581
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.000
say, you know, and I
especially built a business on like insta famous
582
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:36.519
stuff, but like this thing shot
was the same. Like, I think
583
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.119
there is something about like putting in
the work and I think so many people
584
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:45.039
overlook the hours and the time spent
and like the amount of self motivation that's
585
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.280
required to kind of get the level
of success that most people are trying to
586
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.000
achieve with like no, no effort. I Love I am pilgrim for that.
587
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:57.599
And professionally, and this is a
bit of a flaw, but my
588
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.559
the second book I wrote is called
Real break or rebellious leadership for the future
589
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:06.639
work, and the reason why I'm
plugging that is because I was actually commissioned
590
00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:08.039
to write a leadership book and I
was like, I don't really have anything
591
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:13.639
to say about leadership, and I
did all this research about rule breaking just
592
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.400
because of my experience and I speak
to a lot of people who want to
593
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.000
be entrepreneurs and are usually working a
corporate job and really scared to take the
594
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:23.960
leap. And, like you know, as I kind of talked to you,
595
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.559
I was really forced to take the
lead multiple times actually with all of
596
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.840
my things, and I kind of
wish there was more more conversation around.
597
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.920
It's kind of taking a leap of
faith and not being like when I was
598
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:39.880
looking at starting a business, I
thought you had to have more you have
599
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:43.280
to know more people, you had
to have more money than takes money to
600
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.679
make money, all of that kind
of stuff. And the truth of the
601
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:47.719
matter is our world is so different
now. You can start a business with
602
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.840
a lap talk and it can be
you know, we were generating an eight
603
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.239
figures within three years and I started
that business with two Thousan pounds. I
604
00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:59.840
think the opportunities now are like,
really vast. I think more conversation needs
605
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:02.519
to be out there for people who
were looking to start up a business.
606
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.920
No, definitely. I really appreciate
you sharing both these books and really excited
607
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.679
to add them to the real list
and also really excited I didn't read your
608
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:14.719
books while so I have to read
rule breaker and and and certainly have to
609
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:16.199
read I am pilgrim as well.
I found. A question to you is,
610
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.880
what's one piece of advice you have
for founders? Never give up and
611
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:23.480
just keep going. I think the
one thing is like it's a it's a
612
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:28.800
roller coaster and until you've been out
the other side, like until you've had
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00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:32.880
an exit, it all seems shit, like every test it's awful. I
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00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:37.320
think like it's like it's just because
you just never know. Right, like
615
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:39.320
you're making all these sacrifices and you're
like, is this really worth it?
616
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:44.840
I haven't been paid in for years, like it's gonna go anywhere, and
617
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:47.440
so, like in hindsight, my
thing is is just like when you've come
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00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.119
out the other end, you understand
like it's very cyclical, like the highs
619
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:53.360
are always it going to be high, the lows are always going to be
620
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.280
super, Super Low, but if
you just hang in there and keep going,
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00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.119
I mean you'll get there. So
that's something I always tell everybody.
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00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.800
Love that. Love that piece of
advice. It's great. It's great,
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00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:06.639
Jackie. This has been so much
fun. Thank you so much for your
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00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:08.159
time. Thank you so much for
having me my guts. been such a
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00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:12.639
pleasure. And there you have it. It was awesome time with Jackie.
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00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.599
I highly recommend following her on twitter
at Jackie fast. If you enjoyed this
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00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.480
episode, I love it if you'd
write a review in the apple podcast.
628
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.159
You're also welcome to follow me your
host, Mike, on twitter at Mike
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00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:27.679
Guelb, and also follow for episode
announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening,
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00:41:27.679 -->
everyone,
