Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael but
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and on this show we talked about
the world of venture capital and innovation in
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both consumer technology and consumer products.
If you're enjoying this content, you could
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subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer
VC DOT sub stackcom, to get each
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new episode and more consumer news delivered
straight to your inbox. Hey everyone,
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so this is our first live podcast
episode, which we recorded at cosmic coffee
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and Beer Garden in Austin, Texas, during South by southwest. To everyone
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who came out and was there in
the flesh, thank you, thank you,
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thank you. It was great to
meet you, and special thanks to
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mark Nathan for organizing the event.
It was so much, so much fun.
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I chat with Jason Carp who is
the founder of Hugh Kitchen, Hugh
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chocolate and CEO and founder of Human
Co. Human Co is a holding company
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that's invested in healthy living. We're
going to learn more about their brands now
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days, against the grain and cosmic
bliss in my chat with Jason, and
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also we're going to discuss the recent
rebrand of coconut bliss to cosmic bliss.
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This is a great episode as we
question what are the values within better for
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you and if there is a bifurcation
and maybe separation within the better for you
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movement. Without further ADO, here's
Jason. Thanks mark. Thanks everyone so
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much for Lennus Prash the wake up
CPG your your monthly event. This is
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could be a lot of fun and
Jason, thanks so much for for being
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here. Yeah, I'm happy to
be here. This is great. For
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those you don't know, Jason is
the funder and CEO of Human Co.
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We're going to learn a lot more
about that today. If you're interested in
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better for you products, this is
absolutely the best place to be. So
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let's get started. So, Jason, you were a hedge fun guy.
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How is your health journey help shape
your professional journey? Why did you kind
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of transition into like CPG? Yeah, so some of you probably know this
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because I see a lot of familiar
faces in the crowd. Thank you for
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coming. By the way, I
was in the Finance Industry for just over
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twenty years. In my early s
I got really sick. This is back
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in two thousand and one two thousand
time frame, and I was diagnosed with
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a few different auto mean diseases and
and I was actually going blind. When
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I was twenty three years old and
they they told me what I had was
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incurable. I've always been someone who
thought I was healthy. I couldn't believe
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that I got that sick that quickly
after college and I just did a lot
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of exploration. I went into a
lot of what at the time seemed bizarre,
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but now they called functional medicine,
which is this sort of philosophy about
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treating the root causes of disease instead
of the symptoms, and I cured myself
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over the course of about a year
and a half with food. As you
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can probably see, I'm not blind. After that, I stayed in the
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finance industry, but I had to
live a much healthier life. I had
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to be very focused on what I
put in my body and on my body
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and I became a really interested in, you know, what's causing illness in
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modern society and I wanted to change
that. In Two thousand and ten my
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family and I, my wife and
my brother in law, Jordan Brown,
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we created a restaurant in New York
City called Hugh Kitchen. Que stands for
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human. Most people know about you
from our chocolate, but the philosophy and
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our slogan back then was get back
to human because a lot of my research
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and a lot of my training over
the last twenty years was really around anthropology,
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human evolution and how we are living
today with the way we've evolved.
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That was the beginning of kind of
how I got into health and wellness.
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It started off as really a journey
to try to get myself healthier and then
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it became a much bigger mission on
trying to help everyone else get healthier.
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I appreciate that. So was the
goal like the breakout product of the first
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product with huge chocolate, which I'm
sure a lot of you are familiar with?
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Was the goal always to start with
the chocolate company and eventually create other
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products or what was kind of like
the first test per se? No,
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I think a lot of people don't
realize that huge chocolate was kind of an
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accident. It wasn't intentional. If
I had known then what I know now,
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I probably never would have done it. You know, it started as
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a restaurant. For those of you
who had visited Hugh kitchen when it was
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open in New York City, the
whole restaurant was gluten free, dairy free,
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refined sugar free, every animal product
in the store was was sourced and
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a sustainable way from wild animals.
The beef was grass fed, pastor raised.
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The chickens were free range and organic. Right before we open the restaurant
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we were making a lot of glue
grain free and gluten free items, things
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like cookies, muffins, scones,
etc. But we couldn't find chocolate chips
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that met our guard rails. We
had very strict guard rails of what we
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allowed and we couldn't find chocolate chips
that had no refined sugar, had no
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dairy, had no chemicals, preservatives
or even emulsifiers. And there were a
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few healthy chocolates at the time,
but we thought they didn't taste great and
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so we ended up having to make
our own chocolate chips for the baked goods
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and the chocolate was so good that
we had the idea of converting them into
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chocolate bars, which originally just sold
in the store, and then we got
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kind of lucky. One of our
chefs, his girlfriend worked at the Columbus
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Circle Location a whole foods and he
kept bringing her home our chocolate bars and
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she said these are the best tasting, healthy chocolate I've ever had. Can
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we start selling him in whole foods
and we said okay, and that was
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how we got into the CPG business. Wow, that's that's fascinating because right,
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doughts entreprior is there just, you
know, calm buyers and buyers and
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buyers at whole food. So that's
super lucky. That kind of had that.
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It was totally lucky. And originally
we had no outside investors. My
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family controlled a hundred percent of the
company. It was really a passion project.
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For those of you who know restaurants, they're generally not good investments.
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I was a professional investor by training
and so I sort of knew the odds
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of me doing a restaurant were very
poor and it was more a passion project
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where, frankly, we wanted a
place where we could eat every day and
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we wanted a place where we could
prove to the world that there was a
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way to make healthier stuff actually taste
good. That's great. With you,
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chocolate. You eventually do raise money, right, yeah, and then you
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still the business. You event why
did you end up selling to mandalize much
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later in our journey? So,
you know, it's kind of interesting.
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I was obviously very fortunate in my
previous career to be able to fund a
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business like you kitchen, on my
own. We didn't take an outside investors
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for the first many years, primarily
because what our philosophy was at the time
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was controversial. It was the prices
of everything we're much higher. Our sourcing
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standards were higher than anybody, but
we knew of in terms of the quality
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the ingredients, how we source the
ingredients, are commitment to things like fair
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trade and fair practices and I as
a professional investor, I had seen that
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a lot of professional investors, particularly
in the public markets, professional investors and
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companies of all the big food companies
that are public stocks. Most professional investors
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care strictly around shareholder returns and I
didn't want to have arguments with professional investors
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about should we have more humane,
more sustainable sourcing around certain products because it's
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more expensive in our margins are lower. I never wanted to have that argument
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with an investor because I heard those
arguments. I heard those arguments around chicken.
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I remember we had an argument.
We had very expensively sourced free range
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organic chicken and we worked with specific
farms and it was twice the price of
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just what I'll call conventional organic chicken
that didn't have standards the way we had
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it. And you know, they
said, well, why don't you just
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use the regular chicken? Nobody's going
to notice the difference, and I said
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I'll notice the difference and I don't
ever want to violate trust because I've had
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to get to where I got in
terms of my own health by being very
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strict, and so I never wanted
to have that discussion. And so we
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eventually did take outside money and we
eventually had a Mandoli's, who's the largest
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snacking company in the world, take
a small minority position in our company in
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two thousand and nineteen and we weren't
intending on selling it, and this is
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all public information, but we ended
up having another very large company make an
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unsolicited bid for Hugh, which created
a bidding war and because we did have
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outside investors at that point and I'm
a fiduciary, the price got to a
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level where I had to sell it
for fiduciary reasons, and so we sold
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it to Mandeli's. I thought they
were the best of the partners. They've
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acquired several better for you brands like
takes cookies and perfect bar were some of
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their more recent acquisitions and they showed
us while they were an investor and they
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were also on our board, they
showed us that they're actually very responsible,
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they're really focused on making snacking healthier
and I watched their behavior over the course
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of two years and I thought they
would be a good steward of our family's
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legacy. That make fun of sense, I think, looking back, would
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you've taken outside money if you had
to start you all over again? Yeah,
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you well, yeah, I would
have, because I think we were
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very deliberate of who we chose.
Yeah, you know, we sort of
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curated who our investors were and,
by the way, we've done the same
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thing with human co you know,
we've been very thoughtful about who our investors
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are, because it was really important
to me that the people understood why we're
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doing what we're doing. It was
important to me that people authentically want to
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help everybody and that people authentically want
to make the world a better place and
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that they kind of walk the talk, and so we were very thoughtful about
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who joined us. We also wanted
to have strategic investors, and by strategic
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I mean people that can actually help
with things that money can't buy, you
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know, and we had plenty of
kind of vocal ambassadors who care about the
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mission and sort of raised awareness that
there are ways to do healthier food without
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compromising and so we've had some amazing
investors over the years that, through their
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own channels, through Instagram, through
twitter, through social through their own network,
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have just promoted the awareness of both
hugh and human come. That's great
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and so and I'm glad you about
a human go because for those aren't familiar,
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what is human co? So Human
Co, if you now know what
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by family and I did with you, Human Co is sort of my second
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chapter. It's really the culmination of
kind of everything I've done over the last
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twenty two years. Human Co is
a is a holding company, or you
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could think of it as if you
think of like what general mills is or
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Unilever, proctor and gamble. These
are called conglomerates. There also called holding
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companies where it's a parent company at
that sits at the top, that has
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multiple brands underneath. The same philosophy
and ethos that we did with Hugh.
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But Hugh was strictly from a consumer
package because perspective, he was really chocolate,
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cookies and crackers. She'll stable snacking
and as a conscious consumer, and
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I have a family and I have
two children who are my daughter is strictly
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gluten free. Also, I wanted
to create more brands that had the same
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philosophy and ethosis Hugh, but in
different categories, in the categories that,
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frankly, I think consumers need better
options. And we learned to ton both
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good and bad in the hue kind
of journey and along the way we created,
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almost by accident, like an ecosystem
of all sorts of different resources,
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from where to source and Gord organic
ingredients, how to deal with supply chain,
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how to deal with logistics. You
know, we've become friendly with many
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executives at many big companies who are
trying to move the ball forward and we
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sort of looked around and we realize
we had all of these kind of unique
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advantages in an ecosystem that would make
us more qualified and more able to create
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and invest in companies that are trying
to do better for the world. And
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so human costarted is just an idea. It was started by me and my
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partner, gentleman named Ross Burman,
who's been a dear friend of mine for
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about twenty years, and our idea
was to create kind of the first mission
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driven holding company that can provide better
options than a lot of the big food
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companies. And as a professional investor
who studied all the big food companies for
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the last twenty years, you know
many of them are actually trying to do
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better, but they have some constraints, which is they have a lot of
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very unhealthy options that are the bulk
of their business and it's very hard for
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them to shift without cannibalizing their core
business. And so if we if we
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start with something that's new, that
doesn't have those legacy shackles, we can
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do things a new way. And
that was basically the idea behind human co
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and today. We started at about
two and a half years ago. We
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were sort of like a covid baby
in some respects and we now have three
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brands. We created one from scratch
called snow days, so that was sort
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of the second company I built from
scratch. Snow days is the first.
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We was really meant to go after
the sort of frozen appetizer section. We
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started with a very healthy, organic, sustainably sourced pizza bite. I grew
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up on Totino's pizza rolls. If
any of you know put Totino's pizza roles.
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I used to think they were delicious, but I never used to look
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at the ingredient label. And if
you look at the ingredient label it's pretty
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shocking. It's over seventy ingredients it
actually uses and it says on the label
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imitation cheese, and it's not because
it's Vegan. It's actually just imitation.
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You know, I have kids who
like convenient food and I like finger food
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and we wanted to create something that
had never have been done before. So
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we have the first hundred percent organic
Bouton Free Grain Free Pizza Bite. We
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use grass fed, sustainably sourced Mozzarella
cheese, we infuse seven vegetables into the
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sauce. It has the nutritionals of
a meal and we also only use olive
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oil as opposed to refine CONOLA oil, which is in a lot of products.
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And that was the first brand that
we created and then we also bought
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two brands. We bought the largest
grain free gluten free pizza company called against
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the grain. They're based out of
Brattleboro, Vermont. It's a family company.
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They had no outside investors. They
source their ingredients from local Vermont farms
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and the two founders of that company. You're both seventy years old and really
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wanted somebody to preserve their legacy of
doing things right, and so we net
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and against the grain is predominantly pizza, but also has a grain and gluten
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free breads. And then the third
company, which we bought you about a
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year and a half ago, is
called cosmic bliss. It was called COCON
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up lists. COCON UP LISTS is
also a sixteen year old family business that
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was known for its plant based organic
ice creams. Got It. No,
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don't. Thanks so much. So, to be clear, him and Co
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Holding Company, conglomerate, you own. Obviously you you do MNA purchase brands
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but also incubate your own brand.
Correct. You don't have minority and destins
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for any organized for that thing.
We have a couple minority you gustments.
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We have a minority investment in a
plant based cheese company called MONTY's. Okay,
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but we are not a fund and
you know the different is is,
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you know, we are a singular
company and our goal is to grow our
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brands all under one umbrella, as
opposed to just investing in them and then,
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you know, having to sell them
to be paid we don't. We
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don't take fees. You know,
we're all completely aligned with our investors.
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I'm the largest shareholder and investor in
Human Co and so I wanted to have
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a sort of singular focus where everybody
has the exact same alignment in building,
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you know, better companies together.
So how do you think about introducing new
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products at Human Co, whether it's
looking at an evaluating other brands looking to
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buy or you incubating your own products
within better for you? What's your value
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system within better for you? This
is a good question, this concept of
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a value system, and over the
years I've I've seen lots of different values
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in food. It can be a
controversial area because a lot of people have
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different values. Most of the time
you can try to do better and sort
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of all values, but at times
you know you have to make compromises in
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certain areas. And so our approach, and we sort of say that our
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approach or philosophy for Human Co is
making healthier living more approachable and more sustainable.
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But there's kind of pieces in that. And so our approach is human
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health first, if we had to
sequence or order them, human health first,
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Planet Health Second, and sort of
animal welfare third, and that's not
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to say that all three aren't immensely
important, but sometimes you have to make
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trade off, and I'll give you
an example huge chocolate. When we first
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started developing huge chocolate, you know
there's food safety issues that you have to
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adhere to to have scalable products for
people and we wanted to show that we
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could have much better, organic,
fair trade chocolate, more reachable to more
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people. But to keep the chocolate
food safe and for, you know,
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preserving it and making sure it actually
survived, we had to wrap the chocolate
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and plastic. And so if any
of you bought huge chocolate a year ago,
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our outer wrapping is a compostable and
recyclable paper wrapper, but the inside
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is what's called a plastic flow wrap. I hate plastic. I try to
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avoid single use plastic every chance I
can, but that was the only option
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and so we sort of had a
decision like do we not sell huge chocolate
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or do we have to have it
with a plastic rapper? And we're always
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trying to do better and about four
months ago, through the help of Mondeli's,
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we actually found a compostable rapper.
So now if you buy new huge
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chocolate and you open it up,
you will see that there is a compostable
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inter wrapper and that was sort of
progress that we had to make. But
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I think our value system is really
around humans first, because I believe that,
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you know, we have multiple crises
or epidemics going on simultaneously. We
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have a climate crisis, we have
a human health crisis. I mean,
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we have a war going on right
now. There's always things that we have
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to worry about and for me,
given what I went through when I was
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sick, and you guys have probably
noticed this, when you're sick, like
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when people are sick, you can't
do anything, you can't help anybody.
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It doesn't matter how much money you
have, it doesn't matter what your resources
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are, if you don't have your
health, you of zero. And so
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I believe that we have to restore
human health first, and that's sort of
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the sequence we make. You know, and there's other people, by the
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way, and this is obviously subjective
and everyone has different values. There are
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some people who are putting planet health
over human health, and that's okay too,
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but for us, human health comes
first and that's why we're called human
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gump. Do you think that within
better for you? I think that you
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started to allude to it, but
there's a kind of a bifurcation or separation
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between those that are putting products that
are maybe better for the planet but I
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actually better for you first over,
better for you versus better for the planet.
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There's plenty of examples of that happening
right now and you know, I
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think I'm pretty outspoken it about it. You know, I think to solve
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these simultaneous sort of crises or epidemics, we need a lot of solutions.
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I'm for all solutions as long as
people are open minded and educated about them.
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You know, I think there's been
a lot of terms that have been
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greenwashed. There are many plant based
items that are definitely better for cows but
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are worse for humans, and I
think we should know that there are many
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planet based items that are highly processed, that are filled with many chemicals that
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are being touted as being healthy.
Some of them are actually not healthier for
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the planet. Some of them are, some of them are unequivocally better for
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cows, but many of them are
are not healthy for humans. And and
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you know, I sit on the
board of the tough nutrition school, which
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is the top nutrition school in the
United States. We have several professors.
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The Dean of the Tough Nutrition School
is actually on our board, as is
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the head of sustainability of toughs,
and I just think it's important that everyone
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sort of is open minded and open, eyes wide open about this stuff.
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So there are plenty of things that
are being created right now that are addressing
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different needs and I think as consumers, you just have to decide what's more
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important to you and it's everyone's prerogative
to choose that. Yeah, I mean
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it seems like even the the term
plant base, it seems like it's kind
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of a catch all term for being, you know, better for you when,
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as you point out, there's,
I'm sure, a lot of plant
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based products that might be better for
the planet, but are they actually better
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for you to actually digest? So, yeah, no, I totally agree
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with you. And now I mean
all this realm and like the better for
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you. And of course, with
human human co it's all very premium,
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premium pricing. I know you brought
up like the chicken story about how it's
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double the price. Yeah, because
of saying these hours. Can you talk
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about maybe like the pros and cons
of be maybe in the premium space and
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what and why you think people are
actually willing to pay more? Yeah,
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this is a controversial topic. I
don't think it should be. In many
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other categories outside of food, people
have shown a proclivity for better value,
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better quality, this concept of you
get what you pay for. For some
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reason in this country with food we've
sort of gotten away from that and,
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like anything, you do get what
you pay for. I have personally,
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I have disdain for ultra cheap,
ultra process junk because, ultimately, you
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know, I think ones what you
put in your body is literally the greatest
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investment you can make. I think
for a lot of people health is a
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slow moving, glacial process and so
it's hard to observe the detrimental effects of
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eating, you know, ten twenty
years of really poor food. If you
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go to other countries like Japan,
France or Italy, they take pride in
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the quality of their agriculture, the
quality of their ingredients. They actually have
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disdain for really cheap food. And
if you go back forty, fifty years
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ago this country, we used to
spend roughly the same as a percentage of
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our income, so normalized for income
levels, on food as a percentage of
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our sort of annual compensation. We
used to spend the same percentage as those
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countries and today we spend roughly half. We spend half as a percentage of
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our income on food that they do. I think a lot of consumers are
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learning that you do have to vote
with your dollars. I think there's like
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a skepticism and I think it's well
deserved that when you see more expensive items
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that you're being ripped off. You
know what we try to do a human
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cos we try to be transparent about
how we source, what we source,
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how we work with farms, how
we work with with people and, you
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know, better practices and it is
more expensive. It is more expensive to
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do things better, but I think
in the grand scheme of things it's about
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discretionary choices. We've spent a lot
of time on this at toughs and there's
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been a lot to research on this. There's a myth that you have to
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be wealthy to eat healthy and it
turns out that you only have to spend
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one to two dollars a day incremental
to dramatically upgrade your diet in terms of
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fruits, vegetables, more organic food, better practices and and basically anyone who
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has a smartphone, anyone who has
a streaming service, whether it's Netflix or
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spotify or Hulu or whatever, anyone
who's ever had a starbucks, they can
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all afford to have healthier options.
They're choosing not to. I think part
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of our job is to show people
the the return, to show people that
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spending more on better quality products goes
towards creating better practices at the end of
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the day, and so I think
it's a good fair discussion about how to
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sort of raise awareness around that.
And it's really an invisible hand kind of
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economy. If more people demand better
practices and pay for the better practices,
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more farms, more companies will start
actually doing it, because that's where the
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money is. And so, you
know, I'm a big proponent of showing
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people that you do get what you
pay for and also being very clear with
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everybody when they look at a hug
chocolate baror they look at anything in Human
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Co and they're like wow, that's
really expensive. You know, I'm happy
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to show you that our margins are
half of what the big food companies are,
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that we're making actually way less money
than the junk food because we're sourcing
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things and passing it to you as
the consumer, and I think that's really
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important, that you're just basically buying
better stuff with better practice. A couple
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years ago, and I know you
pointed out, that you acquired cooking a
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bliss, which was a plant based
ice cream company, and you decided to
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introduce dairy and obviously rebranded to cosmic
bliss. What was the rethinking behind that
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decision? Yeah, so this is
a really interesting learning lesson. If you
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guys have have seen this, there's
a lot to reflect on this. So
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the background is is cocon up lists
is about sixteen years old. It was
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known as a plant based Vegan ice
cream company. It's actually was owned by
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a dairy farming family and Eugene Oregon. All public information because they wanted to
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have a plant based option. The
daughter of the family was really interested in
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more plant based options and dairy free
options and you know, part of our
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job is to talk to lots of
consumers and and to sort of understand where
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people's desires are. And it turns
out, you know, at this point
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in time, obviously plant based is
well understood and well accepted and we're a
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big fan and advocate of that.
You know, most of Hugh products,
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for example, or Vegan. But
there are a lot of people who still
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consume animal products, is still consume
dairy. In fact it's over ninety seven
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percent of people and over ninety seven
percent of ice cream sold in this country
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is still dairy, and the vast
majority of that dairy comes from factory farms.
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And as a company, Human Co
is against factory farming and against unfair
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treatment of animals and we wanted to
provide a better option for those people who
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still like consuming dairy from time to
time. And it didn't exist. You
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know, there are a few organic
ice creams out there. I have not
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found a scaled grass fed dairy ice
cream in the country and I haven't found
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one that focuses on regenerative and organic
practices. And so we spent a long
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period of time over the last,
you know, really year, talking to
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different farms, talking to different people
about is there a way to do a
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much better dairy and there's something in
the in the animal welfare community called the
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five freedoms, and the five freedoms
is considered sort of the gold standard for
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animal welfare and it's things like,
you know, is the animal free from
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pain? Is it free from hunger
is it free to enjoy the way that
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they live in the wild, like
eat grass, which is what cows eat
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in the wild, and we wanted
to produce a better option for people who
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still like dairy and it turns out
that a lot of people still prefer dairy
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based cheese to plant based cheese and
a lot of people still prefer dairy based
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ice cream to plant based ice cream. But there wasn't an option that we
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felt was much more humane, a
much better choice than the industrial, factory
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farming choice and frankly, it's actually
much more delicious. So we developed what
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is now a launched this week.
It's the first hundred percent grass fed,
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organic clean label ice cream in the
country and and we're very proud of it.
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But what was interesting thing, and
you know I think it's it's interesting
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for this crowd, is that it
was very well received by most people.
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You know, we're trying to be
more inclusive and provide better options for everybody
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and our general approach and are sort
of implicit. It's not an it's not
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really an explicit slogan, is sustainability
for all diets, no matter what your
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diet is, no matter what your
preference is no matter what your value system
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is. If you want to live
better, we want to provide you with
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better options. And we had a
small minority, but a very vocal one,
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come out that's very anti any animal
products, any animal practices, whether
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it's dairy or meat or leather,
and it was really interesting to sort of
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hear this conversation because we're trying to
preach tolerance. We're trying to preach tolerance
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for other people's value systems and to
not judge. And you know, I
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feel like some of and I applaud
all the plant based innovations that are coming
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because we're all trying to solve these
problems, but some of the community is
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doing it in a method of shaming
and we are very much against the notion
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of shaming or intolerance, because I've
just met so many people over the years
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that have so many different value systems
and it's been an interesting conversations and and
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unfortunately there have been some people that
are not tolerant and not understanding. When
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you look around and you think about
brands within the better for you space,
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like how do you approach your marketing
and branding behind your products? I mean
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I think they all have some similarity. You know, I think one of
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our other value systems, which I
didn't talk about, is there is a
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bifurcation happening right now in health and
wellness. There are many companies that are
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taking the approach of what I call
sort of techno food or Foodtech. You
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know, these are things like growing
flesh in a peatree dish or using dprinting
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methods to print meat or synthetically using
genetics and bioengineering to create things, which
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all obviously have the noble goal of
reducing environmental footprint. But I still think
409
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:07.279
there's a lot of opportunity in working
with farms and working with agriculture and going
410
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.240
back to a way, and this
is really what regenerative agriculture is trying to
411
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:15.839
espouse, is there are many ways
to still work with nature that reduces our
412
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:21.000
footprint, that reduces greenhouse gas emissions, that's much more humane and how you
413
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:25.400
work with animals. That's been a
big focus of ours from a value system
414
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.519
perspective is still working with nature.
If you look at all of our brands
415
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.599
and all of our products, they
are all of our ingredients or source from
416
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.799
farms. We don't do anything that's
that's produced in a laboratory or bioengineered,
417
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.160
and so we market our things as
wholesome. We describe them. You know,
418
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.000
most of what we do, everything
we do is no GMO, everything
419
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:48.359
we do is gluten free, almost
everything we do is organic, and it's
420
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.160
really about creating better options. It
tastes amazing and we focus on foods that
421
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.799
bring joy and that's really an outgrowth
of kind of what I went through,
422
00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.799
you know, when I was sick
and I had to eat a very restricted
423
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.200
diet. I had to eat a
lot of healthy things that tasted like shit
424
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.599
and it really was depressing and if
any of you ever had to been on
425
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.559
different diets, you'll notice it.
Like I believe food is a part of
426
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:14.839
community and food is something that should
bring joy and pleasure and food is an
427
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:19.440
inherent aspect of human culture. And
so we focused on comfort foods that historically
428
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.920
have been really junky filled with a
lot of crap, and really try to
429
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.480
upgrade them and make them so they're
still amazingly delicious. Our first variables always
430
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.519
is it delicious? Does this pass
the kid test, like, will my
431
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.599
children eat it and not know it's
healthy? And if the answers yes,
432
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:42.000
we go and so that's like a
big part of how we sort of describe
433
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.279
what our brands stand for. No, no, no, that makes that
434
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.880
of says. How do you also
feel specifically about cell based meat? And
435
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.240
there's a few brands starting to like
come into market and there's been a ton
436
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.359
of research about it. It's,
as you would say, technico food,
437
00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:00.240
right, it's built in a lab, but a lot of people don't think
438
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:04.960
that's actually genetically modified. As I
an option of being sustainable and maybe better
439
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.079
for the planet, but also may
be better for you too, I'd say
440
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:14.119
on a lot of these innovations I'm
more agnostic. I'm not anti I'm just
441
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.559
agnostic, and I'm agnostic with a
skeptical mindset. And the reason is is
442
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.400
because, you know, it's also
based on my own learnings and my own
443
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:27.119
study, which is around anthropology and
human evolution and and sort of how we
444
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.400
evolved our diets as human beings,
how we evolved as human beings, you
445
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.599
know, particularly since we've been hominids
and been on two feet, and you
446
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:40.440
can learn a tremendous amount by just
studying kind of evolution of both animals and
447
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:45.359
humans. There have been many food
products in the last fifty years, or
448
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:52.640
something involved in the food system that
the FDA deemed safe at one point and
449
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:57.279
ten years later when whoops not safe, whether it was carcinogenic glyphosate, which
450
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:01.759
is the herbicide that Monsanto is very
well known for, is banned in many
451
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:06.839
countries because it's a known carcinogen.
There have been plenty of drugs that were
452
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:09.680
proven safe that later we're proven unsafe, even things like Trans Fats, at
453
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.400
one point where deemed safe. Oh
Lester was deemed safe, and so I
454
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.680
adhere to this notion of long term
human safety studies. I do not want
455
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.119
to personally subject me or my family
two things that don't have long term human
456
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:28.559
safety data. And we've learned a
lot about what humans can eat and not
457
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.119
eat over two hundred thousand years,
which is a long period of time.
458
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.519
And so when it comes to cell
based meats, you know, my personal
459
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.519
view is when you eat the flesh
of an animal, part of what makes
460
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:47.279
animals and US robust is our ability
to survive stressors. We have become robust,
461
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:52.680
we have become what we have because
we have survived and dealt with millions
462
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:58.119
of stressors. You know, whether
it's gravity or its wind or its bacteria
463
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.240
or its viruses, like we are
who we are because we've survived all of
464
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:07.319
these, you know, bombardments of
stressers, and when people try to understand
465
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.759
like is the meat grown in a
peatrie dish the same as a meat of
466
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.200
a wild, organic chicken on a
farm? And the way I try to
467
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.960
describe it is, you know,
you look like a healthy guy. If
468
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.559
I were to eat you, you
know, you clearly have a lot of
469
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.680
stuff that you've been through over the
last I don't know how old you are.
470
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.799
You know you have muscle, you
know you probably work out. You
471
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:31.359
know, or you know, if
you take like a perfect specimen of of
472
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.440
like a beautiful human, you know, take like Brad Pitt in fight club,
473
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.000
you know, and clearly he looked
like somebody if you were a cannibal
474
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:45.759
you'd probably want to eat. If
you took Brad Pitt and cloned him and
475
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:51.799
then grew him in a matrix like
pod, as a clone with no gravity,
476
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:55.400
no food, no walking around,
no working out, is that bread
477
00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:00.960
pit going to be the same flesh
as the Brad Pitt who grew up?
478
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.799
And the answer, of course,
is unequivocally no, it's not. And
479
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:08.760
there are many things in science that
we still can't measure and and I am
480
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:14.320
very humble that there are many things
in science that we still don't know and
481
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.800
we can't measure. And just because
flesh grown in a peatree dish might have
482
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.239
the same amino acid profile, might
cook the same, might smell the same,
483
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.440
might taste the same, it doesn't
mean it's the same. There might
484
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:28.639
be things that we're not measuring in
the creation of flesh, and so I
485
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.800
just try to be agnostic about out
this stuff and I obviously applaud that it
486
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:37.000
is way, way, way better
for sustainability to do it that way,
487
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.280
but I don't know if it's good
for humans and I don't know if it's
488
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:45.519
food safe and we need probably ten, twenty years a data before we know
489
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:52.440
that. If we genetically modify a
molecule that has never been ingested in human
490
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.400
history and then we start eating it
and the FDA spends two years on saying
491
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.039
it's safe, I don't know if
it's fully safe because we have plenty of
492
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.480
evidence that there's other things that were
deemed safe that ultimately we're not proven SAMEE.
493
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.480
Yeah, I think you alluded to
it that in this area we're still
494
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.000
super early and at very much like
the tip of the iceberg, and so
495
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.960
there's still a ton of data we
don't know, just because these brands are
496
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.119
just startings, may become on the
market and obviously in food sciences is a
497
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.119
very just new territory that we're experiencing. So we're in some cases also kind
498
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:28.360
of the test stummies to right if
you actually try and actually eat the stuff,
499
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.719
and I'm all for innovation. I
just want to make sure we're grounded
500
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:37.840
that there are risks to ingesting technology
that's never been ingested in human history and
501
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:39.920
I just think we have to be
we have to have an open conversation about
502
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:44.800
it and we have to let you
know. There are some opponents of what
503
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:50.239
I'm saying who aren't for transparent labeling
because they don't want the consumers to get
504
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:54.440
scared, because they want to progress
the agenda, but I think all consumers
505
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:59.840
should have all full information and make
their own decisions. Yeah, no,
506
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:02.159
no, of totally. So with
human code, let's kind of know a
507
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.360
bit more about the future. You're
obviously in the pizza business, you're in
508
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.760
the pizza bye business and you're in
the ice cream business. How do you
509
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:15.920
think about new categories urges in and
are you also thinking about going beyond food
510
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:17.800
within health of wellness? Yeah,
I mean, you know, a big
511
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:23.519
part of what we do is we
look for categories where we think the market
512
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:29.840
leader of that category isn't doing things
that's good enough for what we think should
513
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:31.760
be in the world. You know, our state admission is to focus on
514
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.840
anything that you put inside of your
body or anything that you put on your
515
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.360
body. So inside of your bodies
obviously food, beverage, supplements, nutrition,
516
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:45.519
anything you put on your body is
everything from personal care to household products,
517
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:50.400
you know, things like lotions and
soaps and shampoos etc. We've looked
518
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:54.840
at many hundreds of companies over the
last three years and we both incubate and
519
00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:01.039
by we like to partner with entrepreneurs
who has share our philosophy and share our
520
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:05.119
mission of making the world a better
place, because there aren't a lot of
521
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.719
places for those kind of entrepreneurs.
You know, many entrepreneurs don't want to
522
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:14.199
sell to a large public corporation and
many entrepreneurs want to keep doing what they're
523
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.840
doing, and so, you know, we're focused on basically creating a home
524
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:22.320
for entrepreneurs to just keep doing what
they're doing and trying to make stuff that
525
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.480
people want and make stuff that,
you know, is really helping people live
526
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:30.599
healthier, more sustainable lives. Yeah, I mean that that makes a lot
527
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.639
of sense. I think it was
also pretty interesting too, is the categories
528
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.480
that you're in. They're obviously very
large categories, right. There not nothing
529
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:39.559
new there are you think about remaining
when you think about new products, a
530
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:45.039
better for you version per se in
like a large category, or introducing maybe
531
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.239
your own products that are, you
know, quite different or or no one
532
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.039
seen before? I mean, we're
trying to make a difference, which means
533
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:54.079
that we have to focus on things
that a lot of people are going to
534
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.159
consume. You know, I try
to warn a lot of entrepreneurs who are
535
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:06.320
doing very niche kind of things that
if you're actually trying to improve people's lives
536
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:09.400
and trying to affect change, the
first thing is you can't do it if
537
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:14.079
you don't have a business. So
you do have to marry you know,
538
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.719
having an economical business with, you
know, doing good, because you can't
539
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:22.519
help anybody if your business doesn't survive. And it's also difficult if you're focusing
540
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:29.039
on really, really, really niche
areas that aren't approachable for the masses.
541
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:34.840
So we're generally looking at areas that
can help and affect a lot of people.
542
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.480
Some of them are smaller than others, but we're generally, you know,
543
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.119
taking that approach. Yeah, since
I'm now, I meant like a
544
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.159
few entrepreneurs here. What's one piece
of advice you might have for them in
545
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:47.360
this current climate? Well, the
first one I just mentioned, which is
546
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.320
don't go overly niche. You know, it's very, very hard to change
547
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:57.239
people's habits unless you have a lot
of money to do so that would be
548
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.880
my first piece of advice. My
second piece of advice what you think the
549
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.760
world needs, as opposed to just
looking at like current Tam. I know
550
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.599
these two things that I'm saying sound
a little bit contradictory, but when we
551
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:12.159
were launching huge chocolate, you know, nine years ago now, a lot
552
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:15.639
of kind of my investor friends,
we're looking at the TAM, which stands
553
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:19.760
for total addressable market, and they
were saying, well, you know,
554
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.199
in the data was never accurate,
but they were saying, you know,
555
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.840
well, the Tam for healthy chocolate's
only like fifty million dollars and the Tam
556
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.559
for regular chocolates like thirty billion and
they were saying, why are you going
557
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.840
into a Tam that's only fifty million
dollars? You're not going to really take
558
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.119
much of that. And you know, there's this sort of prevailing view of
559
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:43.280
you know, you have to evaluate
where you're taking share from, but a
560
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:49.000
lot of times you can shift people's
behavior in something that's already well known.
561
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.840
So, for example, chocolate's obviously
not a niche category. Some people perceived
562
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:57.559
healthy chocolate as a niche category,
but there were a lot of people they
563
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.320
weren't eating chocolate anymore because they thought
it was candy. And most of the
564
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:05.079
chocolate, frankly, was candy.
Lots of refined sugar, lots of chemicals,
565
00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:07.920
lots of junk, and so most
of our early consumers are huge chocolate
566
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:12.960
were not people who are eating healthy
chocolate and they were even not people that
567
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.280
were eating chocolate. They were people
who were eating full stop and just wanted
568
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:22.440
to have something that was you know, dark chocolate is unequivocally healthy in terms
569
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.280
of its polyphens, it's Flavin alls
and what it does for for your brain.
570
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:30.239
But there were a lot of people
that we basically provided a better option
571
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:34.840
for who wanted to go back to
chocolate. So I think for entrepreneurs it's
572
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:39.519
really about like studying consumers recognizing what
it is they ultimately want. You know,
573
00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:44.159
I think using COSM blisses an example, I talk to a lot of
574
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:46.719
people who still eat dairy. You
know, there are some people who are
575
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.760
in kind of this circle and they're
sort of even afraid a little bit to
576
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.639
say out loud that they still like
dairy because there is a contingent of people
577
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.599
who want to shame people for eating
animal products. And everybody I know who's
578
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:01.920
educated wants to do better. They
want to do better for their family,
579
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.760
they want to do better for the
earth, they want to do better for
580
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.719
their health. And so in that
example, you know, we wanted to
581
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:13.599
create a better option for all of
those people who still prefer dairy ice creamer
582
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:15.679
dairy cheese, because there are a
lot of those people. I mean there's
583
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:21.239
literally billions and billions of people who
still consume animal products and it's consistent with
584
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.960
their value system, but there aren't
a lot of like better options for them.
585
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.760
So that's that's kind of how we
approach it, and those would be
586
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.679
probably two of my pieces of advice. Yeah, I mean one of my
587
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.880
takeaways from this is, because I
know that you want, of your pieces
588
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.400
of advice is not to go to
niche or d try to really like reinvent
589
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.440
the wheel with trying to change maybe
a consumer habit, but also that when
590
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.320
you look at categories, look at
the overall category, which the premium category,
591
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.639
like your example with chocolate. Looking
at you know, if you look
592
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:51.960
at premium chocolate, it's easy to
say that if it's only fifty million dollar
593
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.679
Tam that it's a pretty niche category, right, and you're doing something pretty
594
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:59.480
niche, when really it wasn't.
It wasn't each exactly, because chocolates obviously
595
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:01.280
a huge cat of are. Yeah, and so I think look at the
596
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:06.719
entire category, not just the actual
premium side to the category, because you
597
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.599
can maybe be able to grow that
premium category exe of just relying on trying
598
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:14.320
to take market share. My last
question, and we're going to open this
599
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:15.639
up to q Anda by the way, if anyone wants to ask a question
600
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:20.320
for Jason, especially for you,
is what's one part that you think is
601
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:22.920
still kind of misunderstood about better for
you overall, and and it may be
602
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:27.960
launching and premium products. I mean, I think we touched on some of
603
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:32.840
the misperceptions. Nutrition is a very
difficult field because there's not black and white
604
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.519
science. You know, everyone's DNA
is different, some people tolerate certain things,
605
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:43.800
some people are healthier on certain diets
versus others. But there are some
606
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:50.239
myths that are very, very well
established that still get kind of recycled in
607
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:54.639
the newspapers and the common threads that
are like unequivocal. You know, fat
608
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:59.239
is good for you. That is
an unequivocal fact in nutrition. You know,
609
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:04.280
and many other cultures the word fat. In English language, the word
610
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.800
fat is the same as the word
fat. Dietary fat is the same as
611
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:09.760
the word that's fat on your body, and so there's been sort of some
612
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.400
shame over the last fifty years associated
with the word fat. If you're like
613
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.800
me and you grow up as a
child of the S, there was a
614
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:22.119
whole fat free trend with brands like
snackwells. That was one of the worst
615
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:28.119
kind of nutritional myths that that was
like foisted on society that made a lot
616
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.519
of people much, much unhealthier.
So fat is good, egg yolks are
617
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:36.679
unequivocally healthy. That is another myth
the whole like egg white, Ommelett thing
618
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.000
and and you know, there are
many, many scientific nutritional facts that are
619
00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:46.360
unequivocal. And then there's many scientific
there's many nutritional elements where there's a preponderance
620
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:52.719
of evidence but it's not conclusive,
but there's enough there that you know it's
621
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:57.119
better. And nutritional studies are really
hard to do because, you know,
622
00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:02.199
typical scientific method with with other fields
is to have a control group, you
623
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:06.760
know, where you give them one
thing and then to have an experimental group
624
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.159
where you give them another. You
can't do that in nutrition because it's not
625
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:13.800
humane to subject humans to something that
you know is not good for them.
626
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.719
And so all the nutritional science that
we have today predominantly comes from what are
627
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.280
called Epidemiological Studies, which is like
looking at cohorts of people and saying,
628
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:27.440
okay, this group ate like this, this group ate like this, let's
629
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:32.320
try to draw inferences. And then
there's other studies where you're literally pulling people,
630
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:36.000
you know over the course of years
and saying, what did you eat
631
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.800
yesterday? What did you eat like
a year ago? Like most people don't
632
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:43.840
even remember what the eight an hour
ago. And and so those are really,
633
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:46.639
really imprecise, and so you know, I think there's still a lot
634
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:52.320
of myths, but there's a lot
of of wellknown things and basically one of
635
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:54.159
the common threads, which is consistent
with how we do things a human go,
636
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:00.079
the more unprocessed you go, the
closer to nature you go. Oh,
637
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:02.599
it's better for you, full stop. You know, whether it's plant
638
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:07.159
products, whether it's animal products,
whether it's everything in between, the closer
639
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:09.760
you get to nature, the better
you are. And this is unequivocal,
640
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.480
and I'll just end on this note
because it's important, because we have been
641
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:16.880
getting a lot of questions recently about
different value systems and different diets. So
642
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:20.559
one of the best things to study, if you guys are ever interested in
643
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:23.280
this, when you study anthropology and
you study human evolution, most of you
644
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:29.320
probably know that we evolved this hunter
gatherers. We were a nomadic species and
645
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.639
today, if you go all over
the world, there are some groups of
646
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:37.800
people and cohorts that still live as
indigenous people's and still live in sort of
647
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:42.519
a hunter gatherer type of lifestyle.
That's more consistent than the way it was,
648
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.199
you know, a thousand plus years
ago, and they're all over the
649
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:51.159
world. There are indigenous peoples in
the Arctic, their indigenous peoples in South
650
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:53.960
America, there's indigenous peoples in Africa, there's even some here in America,
651
00:45:54.039 --> 00:46:00.280
and they all have wildly different diets. Obviously, in the Arctic regions like
652
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.239
Alaska, where things are very cold
all the time there are very few fruits
653
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:10.199
and vegetables, there are indigenous peoples
that live off of blubber and meat exclusively.
654
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:14.760
And then if you go to,
you know, certain other warmer climates
655
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.199
in the the rainforest, for the
jungle, they're indigenous peoples who live off
656
00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:22.039
of fruits and vegetables and nuts and
seeds, and then their tribes that also
657
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:27.719
live off of cows meat and blood
literally. And guess what? They're all
658
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:30.360
healthy people and they have none of
our modern diseases. They don't have obesity,
659
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.199
they don't have diabetes, they don't
have heart disease. They even don't
660
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:38.000
have things that some people don't view
as linked to modern diseases. They don't
661
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.440
have adhd, they don't have allergies, they have no incidence of autism.
662
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.559
And what's common amongst all of these
people's and all of these tribes is they
663
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:52.320
live really close to nature and we
are remarkably adaptive as a species and what
664
00:46:52.360 --> 00:47:00.039
we have demonstrated over human evolution is
that we do better when we work more
665
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:04.679
closely with nature and less process.
No, that's that's it's amazing. It's
666
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.840
amazing. Well, Jason, thanks
again. This has been terrific. We're
667
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:10.960
going to open it up to Qata. If anyone has a question. We
668
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:15.159
have a microphone as well that I
could grab before I just raise your hand,
669
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:17.360
I can bring you the Mike.
Thanks Mike for Hosting this and thank
670
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:22.079
you, Jason, for speaking.
So my question for you is what is
671
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:24.400
a better question that you think we
should be asking ourselves? And as an
672
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.760
example, you were talking a lot
about tolerance, so I'm thinking maybe a
673
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:32.159
question could be how might we develop
more and better pathways to more sustainable lifestyles
674
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:37.719
and dietary transition? What do you
think people should be asking? I think
675
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:40.320
this week was really interesting with the
cosmic bliss launch, and you know there's
676
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.920
some interesting people in the crowd vital
farms. As in the crowd, which
677
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:47.679
I'm a big fan of, I
really want to preach more tolerance for different
678
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:53.840
value systems and this week was fascinating
because we had so much positive feedback on
679
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:58.800
launching, you know, a much
better dairy option for ice cream. But
680
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.840
we did get some comments that were
very hurtful and we're very, very intolerant,
681
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:06.360
and from people who believe there's only
one way to live. And you
682
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:09.039
know, and I took it very
personally because I've spent the last twelve years
683
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:14.000
of my life trying to make better
options for everybody, I have met people
684
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.440
who have really bizarre value systems,
bizarre to me, but they're not bizarre
685
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.679
to them. You know, I've
met people who think we shouldn't kill trees
686
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:25.400
for wood but are not Vegan.
I've met pro life from pro choice people.
687
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:30.199
I've met people who I'll give you
another really interesting example in terms of
688
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:34.000
the kind of questions you should ask. You know, most people don't know.
689
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.280
For example, a lot of what
I've been doing and over the last
690
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.920
year is trying to teach understanding about
how the whole food system works, and
691
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:46.599
the food system has some ugly underbelly
to it. Most people who consume plants
692
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:51.159
of any kind don't think about the
fact that when you eat plants from a
693
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:54.079
farm, and industrial farm and most
most produce that you get in a grocery
694
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:59.280
store comes from a industrial farm,
meaning a farm that's in the business of
695
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:02.639
producing lots of plants. Most people
don't know that when you have to plant
696
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:07.480
fields, or this concept of tilling
soil, that when you're tilling soil or,
697
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:13.119
you know, making the soil conducive
to plant the seeds, that you
698
00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:19.880
are killing thousands and thousands of the
underground insects, animals, snakes, rodents,
699
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:23.559
moles in the process, and that
is a choice that we all make
700
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:28.480
to consume plants. But most people
don't think about that, especially some of
701
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:32.480
the people who are very angry about
any animal products that you're by by creating
702
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.639
a lot more plants that are from
farms. To do that, you're killing
703
00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:40.719
a lot of wildlife to do that, and you know, I think that's
704
00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:44.920
okay, because that's the choice we're
all making, is human beings. You
705
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:49.239
know, most people don't realize that
when you have like one of these.
706
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.199
You know, most people never seen
what the inside of the Fox con factory
707
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:58.119
looks like when you make this.
There are many inhumane conditions that happen in
708
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.599
making this. A lot of people
don't think about that, and so I
709
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:07.559
think the really important questions for everybody
is to just understand that the food system
710
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.400
is complex, that we as humans, whether you like it or not,
711
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:14.840
are at the top of the food
chain. We have all made choices about
712
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.639
how we want to live our life. Some people are fine having wood.
713
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:22.199
This entire structure is made out of
wood. That means a lot of trees
714
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:24.880
are killed to make this structure and
I think the biggest question we should be
715
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:30.320
asking each other is how do we
engage in conversations to show that we're tolerant
716
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:35.119
of other people's value systems? You
know, some of these indigenous tribes that
717
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.519
I studied, we would view what
they do as barbaric. They don't view
718
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:43.039
it as barbaric, and so I
think that's a really important question that everyone
719
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:46.400
needs to be asking. That when
you hear shaming and when you hear you
720
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:50.519
know, how could you live this
way or how could you do this way?
721
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:52.519
I was shamed when, if you
could believe it, when I was
722
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.800
twenty two years old and I had
to give up alcohol and gluten. I
723
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.519
had many friends back then. If
you were single in York City in one
724
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.320
thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and
you were at a bar not drinking alcohol,
725
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:07.880
all of my friends shame me,
like, what's wrong with you?
726
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.320
Aren't you have a drink? Like, just eat the pizza, it's fine,
727
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:14.239
have some clute, you'll be fine. Like. Everyone has different value
728
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:17.280
systems and so I think it's really
important that you ask people where they're coming
729
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:22.639
from, what formed their value system, and then just to recognize that we
730
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:24.400
just need to be accepting of everybody. Love that. Love that. Any
731
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:30.239
other questions? This has been very
insightful and I really appreciate it what you've
732
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:36.440
shared. I'm interested to understand more
like your philosophy around investing, as you
733
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.719
share like a little. Investors usually
focus on margins, on how you exit
734
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:45.159
your Brandon for or five years,
but it would like to understand if more
735
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:50.039
like longer term investing, I yours. If you have the patients to invest
736
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:53.280
in, let's say, twenty,
fifty years, what would you invest in
737
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:58.639
within the food of everage space?
Yeah, so the question for everybody was
738
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:02.079
how do we approach longer term investing? It's a great question and and look,
739
00:52:02.119 --> 00:52:06.639
part of the reason we created human
code the way we did, which
740
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:10.079
is as a holding company and not
a fund. Most funds have a limited
741
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:14.800
duration, meaning they have to give
the money back after some period of time.
742
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:15.519
And, by the way, I
used to run a fund, so
743
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:21.119
there's nothing wrong with funds. I
built my career on funds. Most funds
744
00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:24.079
the way they get paid is by
selling stuff, right. They have to
745
00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:28.880
crystallize their investments and that's how they
get paid. And what I witnessed,
746
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:31.079
and I was an investor and still
am in many funds, but what I
747
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:35.719
witnessed is that there were a lot
of really good brands that I thought sold
748
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.880
too early, and they sold too
early because the investors controlled the process and
749
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.679
wanted to get paid. And that's
fine. It was a good you know,
750
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:45.920
they were great returns. But if
you look at some of the really
751
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:52.199
iconic brands of today, they've been
built over twenty, thirty years and and
752
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:55.880
they've had many evolutions to get there. And I wanted to create something with
753
00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.440
human co that could hold things for
ten years plus. I mean fifty years
754
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.760
is crazy like that would be great. I'll take ten. You know,
755
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.719
most people are, you know,
wanting to sell things after three but it's
756
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:13.000
tricky. You know, the food
industry in particular is a tough business and
757
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.960
part of what's made it tough is
there's a lot of middlemen, and there's
758
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.920
nothing wrong with the middleman that that's
how they make their living, but there
759
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.559
are a lot of middlemen who take
big cuts along the way. And so
760
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:28.599
when we first started selling huge chocolate, it costs us about a dollar fifty
761
00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:31.440
to make up a huge chocolate bar
and we were selling it at wold foods
762
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:37.360
for seven dollars. So somebody was
taking fifty even though the bulk of the
763
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:42.559
value, at least in consumer's mind, was us and we were only getting
764
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.199
a dollar fifty of that seven dollars. And that's you know, and the
765
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:49.719
retailer has to take their margin,
which is, you know what they do,
766
00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.280
and the distributor has to take their
margin and it sometimes there's a broker
767
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:55.480
or there's another person in the middle. So the food business is tough and
768
00:53:55.559 --> 00:54:00.440
so you have to think about how
do you finance your business to s vibe
769
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.599
that investment period to get to the
point where your business makes money. And
770
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:07.800
so in the case of us,
we found investors that knew we had a
771
00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:13.199
ten year plan, ten year plus
plan, who are willing to bear some
772
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:17.599
losses as we build our platform.
You know, it's definitely not profitable in
773
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:21.960
the beginning, because you're building the
platform. You know, Amazon didn't make
774
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:24.719
money for almost twenty years to build
what you know of his Amazon, and
775
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:30.159
Bezos had to have investors that understood
that he had to lose money for a
776
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:35.800
very long time to build what is
now recognized as one of the greatest businesses
777
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:40.280
on the planet. So I think
it's really important that your investors time horizons
778
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:45.400
and their expectations are aligned with what
you were trying to do and if you
779
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:50.440
have that match, I think you'll
be okay. Any other questions? So,
780
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:52.360
yeah, you talked about like the
fact that you know, changing consumer
781
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:57.519
habits is is really difficult thing to
accomplish, but the same time there has
782
00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:01.119
been a lot of success stories in
investing in consumer education, vital farms being
783
00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:05.599
one of them. So I'm just
curious to hear, like your thoughts on
784
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:09.119
the balance between, you know,
not going to niche versus, you know,
785
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:15.480
investing in consumer education to really grow
out a brand story. Yeah,
786
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:19.760
look, I the question was about
how do you balance changing people's habits,
787
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:24.119
which is hard, with actually changing
people's habits, which a lot of us
788
00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:28.000
want to do. I look,
I think it's a balance. You know,
789
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:32.840
I think it's also understand in consumer
psychology and recognizing kind of where they
790
00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:37.159
are and what. You know,
again, everything is a hierarchy. You
791
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:40.800
know, for us when we did
hugh kitchen, it was considered preposterous,
792
00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:44.719
like we had. I had so
many people that called me an idiot,
793
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:46.840
that said you go to blow all
your money. No one's ever going to
794
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:51.440
eat like healthier X or healthier.
Why? They're not going to spend twice
795
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:54.320
for better stuff. I've been my
whole life basically doing things that people told
796
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:58.400
me I shouldn't do. So believe
me, like I'm trying to be a
797
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:00.920
change maker. But I think it's
also then having discussions about how does this
798
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:05.639
fit into your lifestyle? Why is
this better, and is it something that
799
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:10.039
actually is irreversible in a good way? You know, the beauty about educating
800
00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:15.000
on nutrition is it when you show
people how detrimental like drinking cans of Soda
801
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:20.000
every day is, it's very hard
to go back. Like I never hear
802
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:22.039
people being like, all right,
I'm going to start drinking for Canca soda
803
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:25.840
to day after they spend like a
few hours on how detrimental soda is or
804
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:32.440
traditional Soda, whereas I think there's
other trends that are not permanent, that
805
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:39.360
are inconsistent with convenience, with people's
lifestyles. So, for example, I
806
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:44.719
have done like the full full key
too diet several times. I did it
807
00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:47.760
once for my health purposes. I
did it once just to experiment full full
808
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:51.480
key too. If any of you
have done full full key too, where
809
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:53.840
you're measuring your blood key tones,
you can't cheat. You have to keep
810
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:59.199
your key tones at a certain level. Is extremely difficult to do. It's
811
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:05.199
also extreme dreamly inconvenient. It makes
you a pariah at dinner parties and it's
812
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:07.920
also for many people and it turns
out for me was really bad for my
813
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:13.119
blood cholesterol and a lot of other
blood markers that I measure. Kido is
814
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:17.519
really big and was really big a
few years ago, but it's very inconsistent
815
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:23.039
with people's lifestyles and very hard to
do and debatably has pros and cons to
816
00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:30.360
it. Reducing processed food and refine
sugar, I think, other than it
817
00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:32.159
tastes really good, has no cons
to it, and so I think you
818
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:37.119
just sort of have to think about
tradeoffs and for us a human co we've
819
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:43.719
really been about just providing better options
for people in things that they already want
820
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:47.119
in their life instead of trying to
say, like, you need to eat
821
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:52.480
functional mushrooms at four PM, which
I love certain functional mushrooms, but I
822
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:58.960
think getting people to introduce that into
their diet is a much harder battle,
823
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:01.719
you know, than getting getting people
to have like better coffee. Any other
824
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:07.320
questions once? Oh, okay,
great, come on down. What's my
825
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:12.280
biggest mistake? I've so many.
I assume you mean in this business.
826
00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:16.400
I don't think you want to hear
about like my my personal life mistakes,
827
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:21.000
which at many of those two.
I would say this might sound like a
828
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:25.280
kind of a perfectionist mistake, and
it's not. I should have gotten into
829
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:30.320
this industry much earlier. Men.
I'll tell you why I think it.
830
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:32.239
And it's not because, like it's
more lucrative. I was in a very
831
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:38.239
lucrative industry that was destroying my soul
and destroying my health and literally like actually
832
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:42.199
destroying my health, and I see
this with a lot of people. It's
833
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:45.239
very hard. You know, I
was very good in my previous job and
834
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:49.239
it was very lucrative and it's what
I thought I wanted to do from the
835
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.960
moment I was a kid, but
within a few years of me doing it,
836
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.880
you know, I sort of knew
it was at odds with my soul.
837
00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:00.000
And and when you do something that's
really at odds with your soul,
838
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:04.119
it does manifest in your health.
And I know this sounds a little woo
839
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.840
woo, but it's not. When
you do things that are really at odds
840
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:12.079
with what, like, you truly
want to do, it will manifest through
841
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:15.920
illness, whether it's mental health illness
or whether it's actual physical illness. And
842
00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:22.880
I got really sick and and I
pushed myself way too far. If any
843
00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:29.639
of you've ever seen that movie whiplash
and and the way the drummer pushed himself
844
00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:32.119
in the movie to be the Best
Drummer, I did that to myself in
845
00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:36.920
business and and in an odd way
I was fortunate that it made me really
846
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.400
sick because it allowed me to figure
out, like it was just not good.
847
00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:44.880
And so I think it's a big
mistake for people not to be aware
848
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:50.480
of if they're doing something that is
really at odds with what they feel is
849
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.760
right. And I think there's a
lot of people today that struggle with that.
850
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:58.639
And so I think my biggest mistake
was not recognizing it earlier and I'm
851
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:01.400
so much healthier now and so much
happier now and now that I've recognized it,
852
01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:07.840
it's great. Any other questions for
Jason? You know, one more,
853
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:09.119
one more, all right, no
problem. Thank you so much.
854
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:15.159
Okay, with all that you done, have you discovered any interesting new distribution
855
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:17.920
models that could increase the profit to
the producer while decreasing the cost of the
856
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:22.719
customer? Great Question. You know. Obviously directed consumer, you know,
857
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:29.280
has been a great innovation and there's
many consumer products now that deliver right to
858
01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:32.000
your door, you know, whether
it's but your box or daily harvest or
859
01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:36.559
you know, most of our businesses
have directed consumer. You can order huge
860
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.000
chalcolate directly online, but it's much
harder because there's a big footprint on this
861
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:42.719
stuff, especially if it's frozen food. You know, there's like what if
862
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:47.039
they're now calling digital grossers, things
like Foxtrot and go puff that are much
863
01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:52.440
more like last mile delivery, Amazon
fresh, instat cart. You know,
864
01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:54.719
these are kind of coming in,
but but they're still charging the same kind
865
01:00:54.760 --> 01:01:00.079
of way. I would encourage any
of you to develop better distribution models,
866
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:06.960
because I think the distribution model of
today is kind of archaic. It's sixty
867
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:13.039
years old and it's like really really
in need of like disruption. I haven't
868
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:16.639
seen anything great, but we're all
working on it because I think it's really
869
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:22.719
important. You won't see more better
food until this problem is solved. That
870
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:28.840
she said, because the producer,
who's doing the hardest part of the work,
871
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.760
is not making an enough of the
total value and that is discouraging the
872
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:37.039
producer for making better stuff because it's
hard to run a business. It's great.
873
01:01:37.119 --> 01:01:43.960
It's great. Any any other further
questions? Anyone? Going once,
874
01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:47.639
going twice? Jason, thank you
so much for doing this. It's a
875
01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:52.280
it's an absolute pleasure to have you. Thank you, everybody. Keep up
876
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:57.159
the good fight. Thanks, thank
you. Thanks everyone. Thanks everyone for
877
01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:00.039
coming out and there you have it. I hope you all enjoyed that.
878
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:04.239
That was so much fun and just
really the great time of Jason. I
879
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:07.960
highly recommend following him on twitter at
human cart. If you enjoyed this episode,
880
01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:10.679
I love it if you'd write a
review on the apple podcast. You're
881
01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:14.960
also welcome to follow me, your
host, Mike, on twitter at Mike
882
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:19.400
Gelb, and also follow for episode
announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening
883
01:02:19.480 -->
everyone