Transcript
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Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael,
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and on this show we talked about
the world adventure capital and innovation in both
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consumer technology and consumer products. If
you're enjoying this content, you could subscribe
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to my newsletter, the consumer VC
DOT sub stackcom, to get each new
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episode and more consumer news delivered straight
to your inbox. Thank you, Aaron
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Grant, for pitching this as an
episode idea and for make it happen.
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This episode is all about storytelling.
What does a good story need? What
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are the mechanics how to build a
compelling brand through the power of a story?
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To tackle this topic, I'm joined
by Jeff Kennelupo, who is a
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founder in general partner at List Adventures, and Brents Fernandez, who is the
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head of creative of this adventures.
Listen Adventures backs and build the brands of
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tomorrow, including calm, Kiwi,
co factor, CATCHCO ID and summer KINS.
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Without further ADO, here they are, Brent, Tos and Jeff.
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Thank you so much both for joining
me. How are you great? Do
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a great mic. Thanks so much
for having us on the show. Oh,
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it's an absolute pleasure. Really looking
forward to collaborate and obviously here both
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your stories and talking about, speaking
of stories, what makes a good story
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and storytelling, because I know that
you both are storytelling an experts and really
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think about these elements relating to brands, and also found her stories very,
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very closely. My first question to
you both is, how do you craft
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a really good story? What are
the elements? I think what a lot
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of brands need to craft a great
story is an enemy, finding something that
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you can push against, something that
you can champion for. Finding that enemy
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out there in the world a lot
of times is counterintuitive to a birding a
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company in a brand, but pushing
against someone is really a great way to
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start to understand what you stand for, which you purpose is in the world,
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who you like, who's your friends, all of those sorts of things,
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and creating a narrative around that as
to why your brand stands or something
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is incredibly important for the businesses we
see. The storytelling is for a business
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in a brand has to also include
the consumer and the user. How did
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they participate in that story? Every
person kind of wants to be a hero,
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and so how do you, as
a brand, make them that hero
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as part of that narrative and bring
them into the fold for participation. Those
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are really good sentiments. I think
what I particularly loved was talking about how
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you need an enemy. We talked
about out of the show, about these
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rising cold brands per se, where
the customers are just so passionate about the
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particular brand of the product, of
the cell. Is Part of the reason
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in order to become maybe like a
coldish brand or just have that kind of
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consumer love. What is like the
enemies roll in that context? I do
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you need like an enemy there and
order early to have something that you're not
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right or something that that is totally
ant hi what you stand for, an
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order for to kind of address that
or just to have that like consumer love?
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Yeah, I think it galvanizes folks
right. I think with so many
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brands to choose from out in the
world today, being able to understand what
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a company really stands for and what
they're all about. A good way to
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do that is to really define that
enemy and kind of go in with it
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with your consumer, right, as
Jeff kind of said, around keep your
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consumer top of mind. How can
your customer, you consumer, get in
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on that fight against the enemy?
And if that's, if that's traditional way
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of doing things, if that's sugar
for like a better for you like drink
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or something right, there's novel ways
to start to, you know, kind
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of think about what you're pushing against
and inviting that participation with your consumer to
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really attack that and to think about
a fresh narrative. It's not just the
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coke, is it right? Having
a deeper narrative around why you're doing things
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differently often helps really galvanize that audience. It's kind of funny when you get
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a founder in talking with us who
is a nice guy right, and they
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want to sell their product to every
person in the world. But sometimes finding
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that enemy and it's sort of what
you do, what you don't stand for,
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is a way to put the message
out there in a different way than
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than other folks have done it.
So it's funny that you have to dig
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deep sometimes to find that enemy.
When it comes to what that means to
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your brand, as Brent Tho's usually
likes to say, the riches are in
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the niches in the sense of focus, I think helps storytelling and it's really
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hard to have a story resonate with
everybody because if you're for everyone, you're
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really not for anyone, and so
you know, we like to have a
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very I guess what we're looking for
when we meet entrepreneurs or listening to founder
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stories, etcetera, is just a
really crisp understanding of who are they building
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the story for? WHO's our audience? Why are they buying in? Why
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our employees going to join that fight
that Brentis is talking about and get up
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every day and leave a big company
to come work at a scrappy start up
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and go to battle? Those are
a really great point. It reminds me
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of a conversation that I had with
Joe Cud love, the founder of Ori,
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when he was thinking about the ory. Brandon was very much southern California
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inspired and one of my questions was, well, how do you then capture
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that color town California feel when you're
trying to appeal to you know someone in
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Minnesota, wet, that had never
been to the beach right, and what
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he said was that he believes that
brand's order to be successful, need to
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have a point of view, need
to have a very clear point of view,
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and that I think both of your
sentiments that it's not for everybody not
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to say that people in Minniesoda don't
buy Vori or anything like that, but
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just in terms of like the look
of the feel of the brand, needs
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to actually be very consistent and actually
come from, as you say, like
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a particular niche. Just to add
to that, Mike, I think it's
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got to come from an authentic place. Authenticity is what consumers respond to and
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it's also why, I think that
you're seeing such a proliferation of innovation that
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are that is pushing a gainst incumbent
brands, that the longer a brand has
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been out there, the harder it
is to maintain authenticity around what you've started.
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And so start up brands for us
are exciting places to go invest because
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they're clean slate. It's very hard
for a massive food company, you know,
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let's use Nesti as an example,
to say where the healthy food company
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now. They need to be the
healthy food company today because that's what consumers
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are demanding, but they haven't always
been the healthy food companies. So when
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you peel back the onion, that
story has holes and I think what's exciting
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about innovation and startups in generals that
you're starting the story from scratch. It's
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a clean slate which allows you to
make every decision through that Lens, which
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hopefully means that your story as it
evolves, is harder to poke holes through.
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With that being said, what makes
to you as an investors, and
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when you're seeing so many brands in
the market right there's so much maybe noise
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out there, because it's never easier
than ever to start a company, never
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harder than ever to build a brand
just because there's so much competition out there,
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what actually is authenticity to you,
because it seems like when I look
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at brands like Oh, like,
that's authentic, that's authentic, and you
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know, some of the make it, some of the don't make it,
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and so I'd love to hear kind
of in your eyes, how you can
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kind of peel back the onion and
really get a sense of, in your
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own view, if a brand is
is truly authentic. I think there's a
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lot of manufactured authenticity through story and
I think what it really comes down to
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is like just getting at the the
truth to how the company was started,
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who started it, what was the
reason for starting it? And I think
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authenticity is really about meaning. We
see a lot of companies. We often
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get pitched by people that say,
Hey, Hey, I've looked at sixty
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categories that haven't had a good d
to see model and I picked one and
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I'm going to go build a big
company and I you know what, some
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of them are really successful with that
model. But it's very inauthentic versus somebody
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saying, Hey, I'd launched this
company because I believe that the world needs
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this product or that the service or
it should be looked at differently, and
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here's why and here's all the people
that I've talked to that also believed that
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it should look this way. And
I built the community around it and we
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started to have some movement and a
lot of times some of the brands were
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looking for it's it's almost like a
movement versus just a product or an innovation.
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And listen, we'd like to say
we back founders that are consumer obsessed.
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Right, they go deep on understanding
who their core brand champion is and
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really understand that psychographic to enable for
the brand to grow. Right. So
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like being able to have that court
consumer in mind who might share the message,
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who might really add to that story
of authenticity, versus a brand just
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broadcasting out into the world, Hey, where the best of the best or
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the truest of the true having a
little bit of the truth in the consumer
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really helps to elevate authenticity and make
sure it's resonant beyond the brand. Telling
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you where an authentic brand. How
do you also think about out brands that
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where there is a face to the
brands, like the founder, is very
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maybe the founder might not be like
a celebrity before, but very much like
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the founder. It's very founder driven
versus brands that maybe aren't kind of in
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the picture, like right on the
center cover. Is that more risky investing
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in brand whether actually is a face
the brand? Yeah, you know,
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I mean I think it's certainly an
opportunity. We're always looking for a brand
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to have more than just a product, right, like a brand is more
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than just a product. Brand is
a collection of experiences, right. So
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having a face to the brand or
a person connected to it automatically means there
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is content in the world. There's
something for the consumer to latch onto and
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say this is more than just this
products you're trying to sell me. This
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is a real human being and they
got into it for these reasons and you
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get into sort of some of that
pitch or the you know, the cell
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they're but it's certainly an opportunity when
couch to the right way. You have
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to be a good editor of those
founders personal brands, but certainly can be
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positioned in a way that helps the
company build story and content outside of the
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product. Those are really great point. Yeah, if need to add,
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it's interesting. Right, we're living
kind of through what I like to call
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is like a a convergence, right, social media and everybody having a supercomputer
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in their pocket kind of becoming ubiquitous
in two thousand and eight, nine and
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ten, right, like those two
converging trends created what I like to call
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like the movement towards where every brand
needed to started to act more human.
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And guess what, humans started to
act a lot more like brands. And
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so we're living in this really interesting
time and I think you've seen it through
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the rise of celebrity brands and through
the rise of Kim Kardashian. Right,
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she is a force of a brand
herself and she's also built business on top
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of that personal brand, and so
it's a really interesting time. And the
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reality is is that everyone's their own
media network, right. We all have
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many ESPN's, right, because my
instagram following even though it's tiny, is
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an audience set wants to know what
Jeff's up to, and so in this
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new world, it's hard to separate
personal brand and brand. How much you
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play into that, I think,
is determined. It based on the founder
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and and you know how much their
voice matters to the topic they're trying to
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help change. What entrepreneurs come to
pitch you, what is usually missing when
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they story tell about their journey?
What have you seen that maybe are I
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want to say mistake, but more
so like elements that you think that entrepreneurs
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might be missing? I think sometimes
missing the mark starts with just talking about
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the product and all the work that
you've done around getting it built or getting
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it developed or getting it manufactured,
versus the story really being born out of
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the consumer need and the human side
of it. And so I think you
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know, at the end of the
day, like brands, are built through
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emotional connection and I think you have
to understand what's going to create believers and
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I think that you know the story
needs to be the the insights that allowed
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you to articulate why you've come up
with this solution or product and how you're
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going to emotionally connect with your audience
and I think sometimes it misses the mark
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if you come in and all your
talking about is the innovation that you created
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and you know it's the product,
product, product, feature, feature,
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feature. That's a really, really
good point. Like over emphasis may be
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on the product but actually not on
the actual emotional connection or, you know,
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be able to actually stories tell how
that product could actually impact and really
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solve like a true pain point of
for you. But is that also like
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an opportunity, since you are both
branding people, is that also opportunity where
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it's like hey, like you guys
have like an awesome product, we love
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the vision, we love that.
We think this has all been a real
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problem, harder with us because we're
the ones that actually understand that can help
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you drive and really appeal or show
through your messaging that like emotional connection to
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audiences. Yeah, I mean I
think there's a lot of awareness around what
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branding is, what the logo is
or what colors I'm picking for my company.
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I think it's really eye opening to
think about the brand as a collection
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of experiences and to go deeper with
a entrepreneur and like understanding how we might
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build an experience beyond the product that's
really eye opening for them to understand.
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It takes a purpose, right.
It takes a purpose for the company in
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the world and it takes a personality
out there in the world that helps you
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break through the clutter and advertise that
purpose right. I think it's a journey
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with every entrepreneur and sort of understanding
the language around how we think about strategic
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brands and purposeful brands in order to
help them grow into not just a product
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but a platform that allows folks to
participate. And you know, there's new
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products that come down the line,
but it all really centers around this idea
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of purpose and a human at the
center of that purpose for the brand to
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exist in the world. Do you
mind breaking down a little bit what you
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mean by collection of experiences? It
could be examples or just like kind of
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like go a little bit deeper.
I think that so much of what brand
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means is those collection experiences, whether
that's customer experience, whether that's an advertising
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message, whether that's the culture inside
of a company. Brand is a sum
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of all of those different elements and
there's ways to kind of create consistency and
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I think that so many of our
young entrepreneurs come in they might have a
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great ad campaign or a way to
really find that consumer, but are having
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troubles scaling the company. That's why
they want VC investment right, is to
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scale the company and scale the message. So so much of these things are
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to give. So much of what
we do is to you know, that
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really that that playbook as to how
do I scale consistently? How do I
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keep the message consistent? What are
those? How do I talk about this
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in a way that others aren't and
provide a path forward for that consistent,
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you know, relevant experience for consumers. They really think of it as brand
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moments. Right, every touch point
that you have with company can be a
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brand moment and you need to think
of it that way. So even if
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it's just transactionally, if it's confirming
purchase or email that it's shipping like,
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those are all potential brand moment for
you to insert your voice and to create
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some affinity around what you stand for
and making that Tope of mind. As
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far as compassion and rand equity,
that's so true. It's so true.
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I don't know, Jeff Vive,
anything to add as well of that.
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I think bred to's covered a lot
of it at the end of the day.
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It's just every brand is work in
progress. It's another rent tos,
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famous is mm, and what that
means is what that means is that if
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you don't have the right lens to
make sure that as you're coming up with
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new experiences or new touch points or
new media strategies or new communication and if
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it's not going through the same lens
and it's not going to leave the consumer
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with the ultimate experience that you want
them to and it's the aggregate of all
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those experiences that allow somebody to have
a relationship, every bands work in progress.
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I really that statement because wondering,
like how you think about it as
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well. If every bands work in
progress. I know it's a constant kind
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of evolution or iteration based off kind
of Constomer, which is why DDC channel
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is so great, because you can
get like that feedback loop is just so
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powerful and magnetic and really quick.
But if every brand is work in progress,
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what are the elements, like Chech
boxes, that you have to see
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in order to get your both excited
about a brand? And then maybe one
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of the some of the elements where
you know it's not there yet, and
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that's okay, if that makes sense. A lot of our work is even
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prebrand. How are we finding new
categories to go after, and not even
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categories so much as cultural tensions.
What is happening in the world? What
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is the fuel for a company to
Exist? And going deeper on that allows
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us to, you know, when
we see a pitch, to reframe certain
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categories even like right like. thinking
of a sex toy business as as a
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holistic wellness business is something that is
as, for instance, right like,
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allowing us to really kind of think
differently about some of these problems and align
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with why some of our founders are
passionate about the solutions that they're finding,
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really tapping into those that momentum and
culture and points of tension. Every business
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kind of has that at their core
if they're going to be a great brand,
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and we really hope to find that
when entrepreneurs pitching us. That's really
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good point and I think that what
I appreciate by your example is that it
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started off in the niche, even
though sex toys is like actually a massive
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category, but you're starting off all
like a niece per se if you talk
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about that specific category and then look
at it from like the actual broader sense
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of how can we actually expand or
how is our messaging in our brand overall?
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Could actually are maybe use cases for
solving other problems that maybe you might
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not associate with sex toys, which
is might not be what you maybe want
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to like align yourself with it,
if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely,
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and you know, I think that
we work with all of our founders
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to elevate that vision to fresh communication. It's all part of that personality.
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How do you start to shape a
message around something that maybe a tried and
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true way to communicate something? How
do you come up with a fresh way
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to communicate that to your audience and
plug into a cultural movement? It's,
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you know, that's how you align
with consumer but also, you know,
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use that passion to really create a
strong personality and brand voice in the world.
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It's a really, really, really
really good point. I'm ject if
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any to add as well. That's
exactly what we look for pre brand.
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We're trying to identify, you know, what are the conversations happening in culture
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that are shifting. Those are always
good places to mine, right like creativity
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lives intention. That's when you can
kind of have a craft a unique point
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of view about something that needs to
change, and so that's kind of where
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it starts. When you meet an
entrepreneur, regardless of where they're out in
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the maturity of the business or the
brand, you get a sense for why
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they're pushing against at tension, why
they're doing it and how they're thinking about
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solving it. How do you define
community? Does every brand also need a
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community in order to be successful?
In Days of past it's been community equals
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social media. That's not what it
means right like it's not just who's following
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you or who's linking a picture,
it's really those folks that have come together
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to champion the brand and talk about
the brand in a way that you maybe
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haven't even dreamed about. As you
create those those opportunities for folks to get
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together, you know, how do
you, as a brand, connect consumers
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together? What channels are they?
You know, is it a piece of
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con tent? We're always looking for
brands that are on the cusp of having
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a great community. I think that
that's always where you're going to find innovative
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brands being built, is when there's
some buzz around a particular company or an
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offering and finding which channels says are
are aren't necessarily the social channels. Humans
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want to be a part of something, right, like we're, you know,
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our nature is to be part of
a tribe. A brand that allows
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a platform for people that are like
minded to come together and experience things or
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discuss things and converse about things.
Is really what kind of the catalyst of
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community is around a brand. And
so, you know, does every brand
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need a community? I mean,
I don't know. I think there's a
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lot of product companies out there that
have been super successful sounding a bunch of
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product to people but, you know, haven't facilitated any deeper relationship or any
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conversation around something meaningful. Can that
be a good business? Sure. Is
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it a brand that we're going to
likely back? Probably not. And so,
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you know, tell us it's a
little bit more about the ingredients we
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see and what we want to build
and meaningful brands that that that we're excited
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to back and built. I think
that sometimes I feel like what maybe some
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of the confusion is around community.
I would love like to know your thoughts
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about this as well. Whereas I
feel like this like one camp where community
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is engagement with the brand. So
it's like customers talk with the brand.
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Directly and the kind of measuring that
and saying we the community here because we
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have strong, you know, engagement
metrics and like all these things are happening
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and people love us. Or is
it one level deeper where you actually have
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the brand as like a vessel almost
to actually meet other people and actually be
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people that you wouldn't have particular maybe
you wouldn't have matter or new existed if
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it wasn't for the brands. Doesn't
have to mean like they're all your best
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friend orthing like that, but just
like being at being like a death will,
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to actually mean badging a brand.
Is Why people feel galvanized around Patagonia,
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right, like people can get in
on a mission, you know,
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or fill a part of a group
because they see that logo on a jacket,
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right, and so it's an excuse
to have a deeper conversation. Oh
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you like that brand, I do
too. Have you gun climbing, whatever,
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whatever, right. So, like, I think there's a lot of
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that, even just with food and
beverage and restaurants, like everybody is saying
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something about themselves with the brands that
they choose. You know, you're kind
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of aligning yourself with modern consumers.
Aligning themselves with the values of modern brands.
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And so I think it's a great
opportunity to be that conversation starter and
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that wedge to meet other people,
and I think that some of our companies
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have that Opportunity and have leveraged that. Company like slumber kants are social emotional
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learning for kids, right, like
the stuffed animals and the mantras teach kids
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better awareness of social emotional learning and
their emotions and that sort of thing.
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But the community of MOMS and parents
that and caregivers that have gotten together to
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talk about their lives, that's the
brand. That's a that's part of that
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experience because it's focused on this idea
of slimmerton's connecting folks, right. So,
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like that's a perfect example of,
at a young stage, having almost
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Pedagonia, like passion around a brand. I also think, Mike, in
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terms of like going back to like
looking for. You know, what do
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we look for? How do we
start? The name of our firm is
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listen for a reason, right.
It's like how do you go listen to
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the conversations that we believe are going
to start to gain momentum and you know,
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it's interesting, but like things that
start really small, niche right,
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like you want to talk about community, the Crypto community, right, it
333
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ten years ago was like ten people
on twitter and now, like I would
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say it's seventy five percent of my
feed is people talking about crypto. You
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know, that is a community that
was born out of likeminded people believing in
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this shift in decentralization that you know, this new technology was going to enable.
337
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And then you look at what started
the surface in terms of real interesting
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kind of worlds around blockchain, and
you thinks, see things like board a
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yacht club, right like that is
that is a community, a deep community
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in and of itself, where people
are badging their profiles with their ape and
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it's a limited number of them.
So there's only a certain amount of people
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that can be in that community.
And guess what, like they're all proud
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to be part of it and they're
talking about it every day, and so
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I think it's a great modern example
of what it means to kind of build
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community into a business model. Now, those are all great points in Jeff,
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Crypto did rebrand to web three.
I totally hear you say. I
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also what I really love, Brentos, about what you said is it's a
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reason to engage it, which I
love. How like soft touch that is
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almost like hey, you're wearing Patagonia, I'm wearing Patagonia. I mean I'm
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actually wearing Patagonia, but but like
you have this like connectivity and like almost
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like awareness that the person is like. So they might have, you know,
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maybe similar values or, you know, enjoy simply my enjoy like the
353
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outdoors or or to hike. I
really like how it's almost like a reason
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to engage a recently start a conversation
or or so like that is. I
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think that's a great way to just
think about what community is in a very
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simplistic term. Yeah, shared values. I mean that's spot on right there.
357
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You know, if I could put
point to one thing, totally,
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totally so, once a brand gets
acquired right, and I know you talked
359
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about nestly little bit earlier, just
like a lot of the incumbent players have
360
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like a long history of, you
know, producing. It's they're trying to
361
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get into bettter for you, producing
products that aren't better for you, for
362
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example, and I know obviously the
DC's, you guys love exits, but
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when have you seen the brands thrive
under you know new ownership and where do
364
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you think of there's like oftentimes,
name like a mismatch. Maybe the brand
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has been really hard to be authentic
per se when you're under incumbent large company.
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I would say I was just jumping
at right and say I think our
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Xbar was an interesting one, because
that's that's kind of the idea of been
368
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or for you in a whole new
way to think about eating healthy or supplemental
369
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eating. But when they required it's
one of those things where the message was
370
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able to be scaled and the sharp
elbows, they were able to keep the
371
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sharp elbows, like the nobs campaign
of nobs and these bars and and you
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know, nobs in our commercials.
So I think that's an example of something
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that was, you know, pretty
successful and keeping true to the reason the
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product existed versus changing the message because
it's, you know, part of a
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bigger conglomerate now. Right. I
think that's a great example. I think
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Brenz's is touching on this a little
bit and I think it the stories yet
377
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to fully unfold there for our rex. But you know, it's about giving
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the company you acquired the space to
continue being who they are. Where I've
379
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:19.039
seen it go awry, as when
the acquisition closes and immediately you know the
380
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conglomerate that bottom is starting to put
in, you know new leaders and and
381
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what it does is it changes the
culture. And so much about a lot
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of these brands is the culture,
and that culture could be but the speed
383
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at which they operate, the sharp
elbows in which they feel comfortable communicating,
384
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etcetera, etcetera, etc. Once
you mess with the culture, the Lens
385
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to make decisions at the company changes
and therefore you start to get off track.
386
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And so consumers consense that right and
it might be oh, changing the
387
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formula because we know we can get
five percent more better margins. And guess
388
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:55.640
what? The consumers backlash because it
tastes like Shit. So like these are
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delicate situations and I think the company
is that easy their way into allowing the
390
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existing team to maintain the kind of
operating cadence and culture that got the brand
391
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to where was are going to fare
a lot better than those that come in
392
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and think that we know better because
we're the bigger, bigger guy that just
393
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bought you at such a gay boy. I found a question to you both
394
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is maybe what's one book that inspired
each of you personally and professionally. I
395
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:23.519
guess I would point to a book
that early in my career, a book
396
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by Leo Burnett called Star reachers.
That is a great story about advertising,
397
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:33.640
but a really good story around thinking
about the consumer and bringing a message in
398
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.759
a fresh and creative way and the
systems that are kind of used in marketing,
399
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.680
and that's everything. I think there's
some timeless lessons in there. And
400
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.759
then if I would point to maybe
a newer book, there's a book called
401
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:48.000
scratch by Tim Gallis that I really
love for contemporary whole brand. I would
402
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.839
totally recommend it to all the listeners. I'll take brandchos his quere and give
403
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.359
too as well. My first one
is is a book called abundance by Peter
404
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.920
Dumonti's which is I guess it was
probably written in two thousand and eleven or
405
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.920
so, but it was about a
pretty optimistic view in a pretty pessimistic world,
406
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.599
which is that you know this idea
that, given the innovation economy,
407
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.400
we're going to be living in a
world of abundance, not a world of
408
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:17.680
dire straits, which is what we
all kind of sit and think through every
409
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day. And as we approach climate
change, etc. And so what I
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liked about the book is that it's
it's not just this kind of rosy picture.
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It's actually a playbook for how we
can get there from through entrepreneurship and
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through really big thing king. And
then he followed it up with another book
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called bold, which is actually kind
of in entrepreneurs playbook to take advantage of
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those abundance opportunities and gold build companies
that can scale these opportunities. So very
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good. And then the other one
I'll throw out there, just more culturally
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relevant, is the book called Three
Kings, which is a book about kind
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of like the emergence of hip hop. That kind of talks about Diddy,
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Jay Z and Dre and Brent does
and I have a longstanding passion for kind
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of hiphop as it relates to actual
brand we think that the hip hop movement
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is actually kind of the start of
the revolution of how you think about modern
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branding. And and so that one
is is just billed with incredible history about
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how that, I'll hiphop kind of
evolved so much, so much bad authenticity
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in hip hop and what we're talking
about today. For sure it's amazing.
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That's amazing really excited to add all
these in the book list. This is
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great, well bred, doesn't Jeff? Thanks again for your time's it been
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a lot of fun. Thanks,
Mike. Take so much. And there
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you have it. It was so
much fun chatting with Brent Tos and Jab
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and there you have it. It
was so much fun chatting with Brentos and
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Jeff. I hope you all enjoyed
it. If you enjoyed this episode,
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I love it if you'd read a
review on the apple podcast. You're also
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00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.519
welcome to follow me your host,
Mike, on twitter at Mike Gelb,
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00:30:37.599 --> 00:31:03.079
and also follow for episode announcements at
Consumer VC. Thanks for listening, everyone,
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