Joe Spector (Dutch) - How he’s changing the pet industry and how his approach to fundraising has evolved

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:16.559 Oh, hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, 2 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:19.800 Mike Gelb, and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital 3 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:25.160 and innovation in both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoying this content, 4 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:29.480 you could subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer VC DOT sub stack dot 5 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:33.159 com, to get each new episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your 6 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:37.799 inbox. Our guest today is Joe Specter, founder and CEO of Dutch. 7 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:42.200 Dutch is the online vet care when you need it. Previously, Joe is 8 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.359 one of the founders of hymns and hers. We discussed the opportunity he saw 9 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:51.240 within pet insurance and care, how his approach to fundraising at Dutch was quite 10 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.719 different to his approach at Hymn and hers and why he wants to change the 11 00:00:54.759 --> 00:01:07.040 incentive structure within the vet industry. Without further ADO, here's Joe. Joe, 12 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:08.959 thank you so much for joining me here today. How are you? 13 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:15.439 I'm doing extremely well. Like I said, I I feel like I'm running 14 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.239 like a chicken with its head cut off, but in a good way. 15 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:25.480 I'm a happy chicken. It's my natural state. As long as you're a 16 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:27.760 happy chicken, that is a good thing. That is a good thing. 17 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.599 So I wanted to start at the very beginning. You know, before you 18 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.480 started Dutch, which obviously we're gonna spend the majority of our time talking about, 19 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.400 you were one of the Co founders of hymns and hers. Why did 20 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:44.280 you decide to leave hymns and hers? What did you learn from that experience? 21 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:48.680 I learned so much, and I think the short answers you know, 22 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:55.200 I did what I did at hymns and it was time to be the CEO 23 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.760 and the bus of my own adventure. But I learned a lot. I 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.840 learned what it's like to fundraise. I learned what it's like to build a 25 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:08.840 team. I learned what it's like to build a telemedicine business stayed by state 26 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:16.199 heavy operations. I learned what it's like to scale a business, operations wise, 27 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:22.080 human capital wise, and on the marketing side, learned what it's like 28 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.800 to to be spending millions of dollars a month. That is a lot of 29 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:30.319 learnings right there. So when he felt like it was your time to go 30 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.599 and him and start your own thing, what became Dutch? What was that 31 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:38.159 experience like and when did you have the idea for Dutch? What was kind 32 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:42.360 of that Aha moment. If there was an Aha moment, it was we 33 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:49.599 got a pandemic puppy. My brother has had a dog forever and I think 34 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:55.039 the combination of that, I literally had the Saha moment where I felt, 35 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:01.840 wait a minute, I just built a way for our guys to save a 36 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:08.360 ton of money and time and yet here I am spending hundreds of dollars at 37 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:15.599 the vet half my day. This makes no sense. And I looked at 38 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:21.280 the landscape and I just saw so many similarities of what the world was like 39 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:27.120 before hymns came on the scene and I just saw so many similar patterns that 40 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.520 I felt like position to address them in the pet market. So what was 41 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:36.039 the first step? And I mean that totally. You know understands on paper 42 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.120 right, seeing since and Hims and hers. You build telemedicine business for humans, 43 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:46.680 why not build a telemedicine business for pets? What was the first kind 44 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.080 of steps you had to take, though, for Dutch and you know, 45 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.039 maybe if those were, you know, different to you know, hymns and 46 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.319 hers. I think one of the things I really learned coming out of hymns 47 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:03.439 is the importance of testing. So I put up several kind of smoke screen 48 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:10.560 tests that started to give me a really positive indication of the opportunity here, 49 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:15.600 and that's kind of something similar we did at hymns before launch. And then 50 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:21.800 it was also, of course, understanding the competitive landscape, and that was 51 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:29.399 also very similar because prior to hymns there were lots of companies who wanted to 52 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:35.000 attack men's wellness, but they wanted to go the easier out and offer retail 53 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:40.879 style products, and hymns made a decision early on to go do the hard 54 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:46.360 thing, which is actually writing prescriptions, and I felt like that's what Dutch 55 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.120 is gonna do. And I saw that everyone was also in the pet space, 56 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:57.199 dancing around the edges, but no one was going all out and actually 57 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.920 building a network that could write a description and save you time and money from 58 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:06.240 going to e at. That's helpful. What were some of the smoke screen 59 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:12.720 tests that you did when you were first kind of formulating and thinking about Dutch? 60 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:17.199 It's thinking about like what's the some of the low hanging fruit that's out 61 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:25.560 there, and there's just like hymns attacked chronic conditions. I put out different 62 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:31.000 chronic conditions on the pet side to see what the uptake was on facebook and 63 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:38.079 instagram. That was always kind of the easier place to go, especially before 64 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:42.360 some of the IOS four team changes. That's kind of what we did there, 65 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.000 and it's easy to put up things and see how they perform. Got 66 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.600 It. Got It. So running tests through facebook ads, instagram ads and 67 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.480 kind of see this is something that people were responding to or being receptive. 68 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:57.839 As you know, if you were to build and actually be able to write 69 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.920 prescriptions online actually be something something that that people were Keenan. I'd imagine that, 70 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.720 Um, since you started, you know, during the pandemic, there 71 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:09.319 was probably a lot of excitement from from people that, hey, like, 72 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.920 I can't really go anywhere anyway and I can get so many things directly to 73 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.920 my doorstep except for, you know, prescriptions for my pet. So I 74 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.360 can understand why that actually makes sense, why they actually did have maybe some 75 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:25.079 buzz or excitement around on this particular process. When you saw a lot of 76 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.319 different companies hanging around the edges of what the real problem is in pain point 77 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:33.600 writing prescriptions, how were you able to tackle that and go through the regulations? 78 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.079 Obviously you're able to do it with in the hymns and hers, and 79 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:44.759 I'd Imagine Regulation for writing human prescriptions is different than writing pet prescriptions. I 80 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:46.959 would love to kind of just talk a bit about, you know, comparing 81 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.519 writing prescriptions of what you did with hymns and building this business with Dutch and 82 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:57.959 as well as why so many companies avoided solving this pain point. I think, 83 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.600 at a high level, first of all, it's a messy endeavor. 84 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:06.480 It's a lot easier to sell it toy or sell something over the counter. 85 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.759 You can get going and then it's a classic you know, selling socks, 86 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:18.240 model et CETERA. This takes a lot of effort and it is kind of 87 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:23.240 the lessons I learned from him's I was able to bring in many of the 88 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:29.319 lawyers, many of the pharmacies, many of the lobbyists that I already developed 89 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:35.879 relationships. There's not that many even today, excellent telemedicine lawyers. That's kind 90 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:42.800 of a specialized art form and being able to have someone who's kind of already 91 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.879 done the work, I think, certainly gave me a leg up. I 92 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.480 also think, I mean being an entrepreneur to begin with requires very thick skin. 93 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:57.079 Working with regulators, working with a new group of folks, veterinarians who 94 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.120 have never seen telemedicine. You're, I mean, says to my earlier point 95 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.839 of running with a chicken like you know, there's just so many constituencies that 96 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.560 you have to bring into your corner. It's an S C process and I 97 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:16.720 think if you've never done it before, if you don't have that thicked skin, 98 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:22.639 it's easy to run away from it or delay attacking the inevitable. So 99 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:28.759 I think for me it was always like, let's address the real problem, 100 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:35.960 which is getting prescriptions in a way that's cheap effective to saves you time, 101 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.879 and let's go after that problem. That's the biggest problem. Let's not waste 102 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.000 time doing all this other stuff. Did you also see on the regulation side, 103 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.960 and you know working with lawyers that are very specific, have the specific 104 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:56.000 skill set um in telemedicine, did you also see that there was definitely a 105 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:00.919 push for this to happen by just the market in total, given that you 106 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.000 had covid where, I'd Imagine, in Hymns and hers, I mean as 107 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.240 well, you're dealing with human medicine. I'd imagine that that's more complicated than 108 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.720 pet medicine, on the surface at least, but him and hers was, 109 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.480 of course hard way before the pandemic and there might have been a question of 110 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.559 is this actually real need, whereas, since it's harding this business right during 111 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.360 the pandemic, was there kind of more like a market push for this to 112 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:24.600 actually get done and being a company that would actually be able to provide this 113 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.600 type of service to pet owners. There's definitely some differences, I think, 114 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:35.519 in many ways, with hymns you're sort of solving the embarrassing actor of discussing 115 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:43.039 these issues with your doctor and kind of hymns offers you discreetness. There isn't 116 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.600 as much of a need for discreetness and pet men's. In fact, people 117 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:54.120 are very vocal about all the issues that their pets have. But the thing 118 00:09:54.200 --> 00:10:01.480 that we're solving for is making it way cheaper and more convenient and more affordable, 119 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:07.720 and usually the pain point is when this issue is happening, like your 120 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.559 pet has an ear infection and it takes three weeks to get an appointment. 121 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.759 I think for us the driving force was not only the massive amount of pets 122 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:26.480 adopted but also the declining ratio of veterinarians two pets. I think the veterinarian 123 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.879 economics are extremely different. A vet has to go almost get the same amount 124 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.399 of schooling as a doctor, but the average veterinarian makes, if you can 125 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:45.519 believe this, fifty hour. The difference in is just staggering. There's also 126 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:52.480 just really different incentives. So there are very few haves and a lot of 127 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.440 have not in the veterinary industry. The haves are the ones who own a 128 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.519 clinic or run, you know, corporate rations, and they have not is 129 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:09.440 the cent of that's who are working for the man and they're the ones making 130 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:16.399 on average fifty bucks an hour. However, the veterinarians are making uh significant 131 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:22.279 amount of their income from selling drugs, and that is very different than human 132 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:28.480 medicine. Can you imagine a human doctor who made a third of his income 133 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:35.559 selling medicine? That's a drug dealer. So like that would just stop in 134 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:41.039 a second, whereas somehow, because maybe it's a smaller market. I think 135 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:46.759 it's also because it's much more of a cash pay market, which is a 136 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:54.440 huge structural difference. Most consumers don't have pet insurance, most humans have human 137 00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:03.919 insurance, and and so that dynamic create it's a much bigger incentive for the 138 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:13.879 veterinarian who owns the clinic to be selling medicine and just loading up your basket 139 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:20.080 when you check out with a lot of medication that you have no control over 140 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.279 really, because they just charge your card and get out of here. But 141 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:31.559 the people who really make that money is the small concentration of that clinic owners, 142 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.559 and the vast majority of vets and the entire set of consumers are the 143 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.840 ones that bear the brunt of these unnecessary expenses and costs. That was a 144 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:46.840 lot. No, that was a lot. That was a lot. So 145 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.720 it seems like, let's park with your first point, Um, that there 146 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:54.080 isn't that much discreetness when it comes to pet ownership. I think people are 147 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.120 a lot more comfortable talking about maybe their pet illnesses than their own illnesses. 148 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.960 Right. So I'd imagine how that maybe translates to Dutch. That custom acquisition 149 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:05.159 might be easier for you. Then I would think, oh, for sure. 150 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.600 And there's just a lot more stuff, right, like the same dog 151 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.639 will get an ear and eye infection than they could, three months later, 152 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.879 get a skin infection. Like there's just more stuff in a shorter period of 153 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.799 time that happens to an animal, right, right, of course, of 154 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:28.159 course that makes sense. How did you approach this from the beginning, when 155 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.360 you talked about, you know, your approach to partnerships with that and kind 156 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:37.279 of all the kind of constituents within the value chain? How was your approach 157 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.200 from the get go to make sure that Dutch was rightly positioned and be able 158 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:46.399 to be successful? It's being super clear on what we are and what we're 159 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.840 not, and so we we've always said that we see brick and mortar evets 160 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:56.240 as partners. Our goal is not to eliminate the brick and mortar evet. 161 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:01.000 Like we believe in your pets wellness. We believe even there are services that 162 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.519 their best position to do so. We were always up front and we're actually 163 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:13.000 gonna be forging relationships to that end in order to be that front door that 164 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:20.320 I talked about. And at the same time, we're always clear, hey, 165 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:26.919 there's these inefficiencies where the consumer is charged for a visit. That's not 166 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.639 right. We're gonna cut that and we're gonna make it cheaper and faster for 167 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:39.840 them to get a prescription when they don't need to unnecessarily go in person. 168 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.600 Got It. That's helpful, and were you also align yourself with vets that 169 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.519 to have them hey like for this prescription, you know it's your first one. 170 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.600 That where we may be identified this illness, then afterwards you don't need 171 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.080 to come in, you can just use Dutch. Were you also kind of 172 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:58.200 thinking about like that type in terms of the customerization there, or or is 173 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.039 it more on like the consumer to actually be able to find Dutch as an 174 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:07.360 option? I think, and this was maybe a lesson from hymns, but 175 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:13.440 the services built around the consumer first. So the consumer and the pet parent 176 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:20.759 is at the heart of what we do and we actually have our own veterinarian 177 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:26.840 network, and so that network is you know, we can ensure that they 178 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:33.000 have good bedside manners, we can ensure that they're available all hours of the 179 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:37.320 day as opposed to getting on evenness in our coverage or even us in our 180 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:43.799 communication. But I will say the one thing we're doing is we're paying veterinarians 181 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.879 eighty dollars per our, which is, you know, still far less than 182 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:56.799 what a doctor makes, but we feel that's a competitive rate for the average 183 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:02.440 veterinarian Um to actually make a living and pay off their loans. Yeah, 184 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.639 no, I mean definitely compared to fifty. So at least that is better. 185 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.559 How did you go about building? You know this because it sounds quite 186 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.879 ambitious as well, building this network of vets? Well, I did it 187 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.879 at hymns. I built I built our network of physicians and I can tell 188 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.480 you I remember. Yeah, this is one of those things. You know 189 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.200 as an entrepreneur, the more muscle memory you have of stuff, easier it 190 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:33.960 is to do it the second third time around. I remember thinking who in 191 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:38.039 the world is gonna, as a you know, as a doctor, will 192 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:45.799 work for this digital startup that's selling you D medication? But you know what, 193 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.639 found one, then found the second one and pretty soon that was ten 194 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.639 and then a hundred and then three hundred. Um. So I think same 195 00:16:52.679 --> 00:17:00.799 thing here. There are many veterinarians who see the opportunity of tell in medicine. 196 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.839 There's so many veterinarians, Um, who are women, who are looking 197 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:10.160 for a work life balance. There are many who are looking for a better 198 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:15.799 salary. They're seeing what's happening on the human side until the medicine adoption. 199 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.960 So the more you start to do it, you kind of see, okay, 200 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.880 there's really a population for whom this is in demand and they're looking for 201 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:29.599 a service to jump onto. That makes sense. How have you also approached 202 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.160 given the current fundraised landscape market conditions? We've now seen a few companies that 203 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.079 have extremely high burn rate, not much revenue to show for it um having 204 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.039 to fold because they just weren't able to they thought that the capital might be 205 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.039 heap flowing and it just has not. has dried up a little bit. 206 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.640 I want to say a little bit, because there's still a lot of capital 207 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.960 still out there. What do you think about, you know, your burn 208 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.960 rate, which I know is always top of mind for entrepreneurs, and, 209 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.319 of course, revenue. How does this relate to your approach to hiring in 210 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.880 this current landscape? Where do you maybe have a thought that you were going 211 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.079 to hire maybe a lot more people prior to, you know, all the 212 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.799 events that have happened in two and now, Hey, I want to maybe 213 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.359 scale back a little bit and maybe cut my burn per se um or so. 214 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:17.039 I just would let to kind of hear your thoughts around and if you 215 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:19.880 had any type of change of heart. What you thought last year when it 216 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:25.920 came to growing Dutch, as opposed to your current perspective? I think that 217 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:32.240 it was always top of mind from a previous experience, but also here, 218 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:40.119 that in the early days people have to be not just good but excellent and 219 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:45.759 they actually need to be good at multiple things and they can't even just necessarily 220 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.480 be good at one thing. So I think most people are doing the job 221 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:55.119 of one and a half to two people and they're doing it in a way. 222 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:59.400 You know, I think most of us are Dutch, our pet owners, 223 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.680 and we're in this business because we're solving a problem that many of us 224 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:11.200 personally have. So I think there's a lot of passion and excitement for the 225 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:17.519 actual product that we're building, but it's definitely a lean team and it's as 226 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:23.240 efficient as it gets. I think that earlier on, I think, coming 227 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:30.400 like in June when we first raised the seed, I think I thought maybe 228 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:36.880 we would just be growing and burning, but I definitely think in this environment 229 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.480 having to take a step back and making sure that we're not just growing for 230 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.920 the sake of growth. We're growing and acquiring the right users for our service 231 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.240 and I think we've also made sure that our service is solving the right problem, 232 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:59.359 which is on the prescription side as opposed to being kind of a general 233 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.839 pet as PAT health business. Yeah, no, I that makes a lot 234 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.880 of sense in terms of, you know, how you think about the market 235 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:11.440 conditions, because I'd imagine it's also very challenging because talent has become extremely expensive, 236 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:17.240 really hard to to hire, considering that there's so many opportunities out there. 237 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:18.880 That, you know, kind of equates to what could be, you 238 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.160 know, a high burn rate and not so great. What's also just generally 239 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.480 speaking, what's your approach to since you've now, you know, I mean 240 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:33.319 obviously you were part of and one of the founders and scaled hymns and now, 241 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.000 of course, you're on your own journey um as CEO here Dutch. 242 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.079 What's your approach to hiring, especially, I feel like, in this project 243 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:47.119 climate, since it's really quite tricky, I'd imagine. So hiring, I 244 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:53.079 think, is my secret weapon. I think, uh, if you say 245 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:59.119 so myself, I find a lot of success on Linkedin. I think my 246 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:07.039 other approach is I don't use recruiters. I think that there's a certain type 247 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.599 of candidate who takes the recruiter phone call and then there's a far better candidate 248 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:18.400 that takes a phone call with the actual CEO who actually wrote an email and 249 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.519 being someone on purpose. I think the other thing is people look at, 250 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.599 you know, who are the DCS. Again, lots of people can give 251 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.200 money, but our main investors, forerunner, eclipse, Ben Lang. I 252 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:37.000 think there's some of the best out there and so people are excited to partner 253 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.960 with them as well. But yeah, I think doing my own outreach and 254 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.039 doing it on Linkedin has been quite star and I also, you know, 255 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:51.799 I think the other differences with Dutch is that there are so many pet parents 256 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:59.720 who are dealing with the issue that we're solving that they're actually passionate about being 257 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:06.119 part of that solution and working on this product, as opposed to joining something, 258 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.799 you know, some Essoentaric Sass or some other thing that that may make 259 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.279 good sense, but isn't something identify with. Yeah, we always give enterprise 260 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.279 as a hard time as on this podcast, as you can imagine. But 261 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.279 no, I mean that is part of what I love personally about consumer of 262 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.359 course you know that that that it could be a problem or a pain point 263 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.240 that you're personally solving Um and that, of course, you know, Dutch 264 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.759 came from as well, a pain point that you started as a covid dog 265 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.880 parent, which is Great. How do you also ensure as we're kind of 266 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.799 coming out of covid it's maybe tough to say, but what are maybe initiative 267 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.240 that you're taking to make sure that to keep users not maybe churning or, 268 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.880 you know, leaving Dutch and you know, still be customers and part of 269 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.519 what you're building in a post covid world. Once people are quiet, like 270 00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:00.000 there were twenty million pets adopted during covid Um, that's not gonna go away. 271 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.839 That's a pet you have, like you said, for the next ten 272 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:10.000 years and I think there's always something in you know now that we're exiting covid, 273 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.200 but we are seeing the highest rate of inflation since the early eighties. 274 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:21.519 So making sure that we're providing an affordable solution. That's again, that's the 275 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.920 new world and that's going to stay with us for another several years. And 276 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:32.599 actually Dutch has lowered. Our prices were now fifteen dollars a month, like 277 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.079 cheaper than anything else you'll see in the market. And we're also super transparent 278 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:44.160 on your medication. So there's something you find more competitive or you want to 279 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:47.839 take out of your basket, you control that as the consumer. So I 280 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:53.839 think being affordable and significantly more affordable and saving you time, I think, 281 00:23:53.960 --> 00:24:00.400 is the secret weapon. I can understand customers not wanting to revert back to 282 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.039 maybe the old way of renewing medicine and having to go to the bet all 283 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.920 the time and what have you, as well as obviously beating them to on 284 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.680 price. What is kind of the vision in the future of Dutch as you're 285 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.720 thinking about here, in the next next few years per se? I think 286 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:23.680 our core competency is the vet network being able to write prescriptions. We're also 287 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:30.480 investing in our own electronic medical records dashboard, so that's going to continue to 288 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:37.039 put the power of your medical history into the hands of the consumer. You 289 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:41.000 know, if you can imagine ever having to switch vets, are going to 290 00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:45.319 urgent care and you don't know where your your medical records are, I think 291 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.640 that's an immensely powerful tool. And then, using that Hook Um, I 292 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:56.079 think will continue to partner with other brick and mortar, with other retailers, 293 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:03.559 to help facilitate cost effective for descriptions for their customers as well. It's really 294 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.599 great. What's one book that's inspired you personally? In one book that's inspired 295 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:12.319 you professionally? Personally, I mean the book that has is so dear to 296 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:18.799 my heart is this book called Exodus by Leon Uris, and it's, uh, 297 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:26.160 the story of the founding of Israel, and my own background is that 298 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:32.640 I grew up in the former Soviet Union and that book was illegal the partially 299 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:38.680 because it's a story of fighting for freedom, and my dad almost went to 300 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:44.079 Siberia for for having that book. And being sort of a fighter is a 301 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.519 is a character trait that I think I've developed more and more and that book 302 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:53.759 always inspires me. On the professional side, my favorite book is never split 303 00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:02.119 the difference. It's by a former FBI hostage negotiator or and he has some 304 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:07.880 really great advice on how to negotiate. I really appreciate you you sharing both 305 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.160 those books. Exit is. We haven't heard x is yet featured on this 306 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:12.440 show, so I'm really excited to add that to the book list. And 307 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:17.519 that's also a very, very powerful reason why he chose it. And never's 308 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.000 with the difference. We've had a couple of past guests type of that book. 309 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:22.440 I mean, I read it. I think it's fantastic as well. 310 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:27.039 My final question for you is, what's the best piece of advice that you've 311 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:33.960 received? I think again, I'm like, there's probably no professional and personal. 312 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:42.720 I think on the professional side it's making sure that you make the time 313 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:47.079 to, you know, to do the things that make you happy with, 314 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:49.960 which for me is right now, my family and my kids. Um, 315 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.960 it's so easy, as an entrepreneur at least for me, to spend an 316 00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:00.440 additional two hours here, two hours there, and little by little they Um, 317 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.960 you know, your kids grow up and you haven't seen them. So 318 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.559 I think it's so important to just make the time and those are the moments 319 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.880 you you'll probably remember for a long time. So that's kind of one piece 320 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.640 of advice, is just to make the time for yourself or to make it 321 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:21.319 for your family. And I think on the on the professional side, I 322 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:26.240 would say, you know, surround yourself with people who are going to challenge 323 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:32.920 you and don't surround yourself with yes people. Joe, this has been such 324 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:34.720 a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, and 325 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.319 there you have it. It was so terrific chatting with Joe. I hope 326 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.279 you all enjoyed it. If you enjoyed this episode, I love it if 327 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.519 you'd write a review on the apple podcast. You're also welcome to follow me 328 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.240 your host, Mike, on twitter at Mike Gel and also follow for episode 329 00:27:48.240 --> 00:28:03.559 announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening. Everyone to be a good and 330 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:10.440 all want to do. I want to do