June 1, 2022

Matt Nichols (Commerce Ventures) - How Brands Can Leverage Web.3 to Build Community, The Future of Retail From a Crypto Lens, and Use Cases Where Web.3 Might Not Be Impactful

Matt Nichols (Commerce Ventures) - How Brands Can Leverage Web.3 to Build Community, The Future of Retail From a Crypto Lens, and Use Cases Where Web.3 Might Not Be Impactful

My guest today is Matt Nichols, founder of Commerce Ventures. They back entrepreneurs from every background building the infrastructure for tomorrow's industries. We focus our time deconstructing web.3 and how it could be impactful to brands and change retail.

Here are some of the questions I ask Matt:

  1. How did you get started in venture capital?
  2. When did you found Commerce VC?
  3. Why the focus on retail?
  4. How can blockchain technology help retail?
  5. What’s wrong with current loyalty programs?
  6. Paint us a picture of the change in buying behavior for a consumer from the moment they step into a store.
  7. Do brands need to embrace Web3 in order to win in the next generation?
  8. How should brands approach the creation of digital goods and partnerships with platforms?
  9. What’s your due diligence process
  10. Supply chain traceability
  11. What’s your view about digital goods?
  12. What could you not do that blockchain solves for?
  13. What’s the relationship between NFT and luxury?
  14. What has to work in order for the whole supply chain to transact through smart contracts?
  15. How do you also think about customer identification when it comes to wallet ownership? How is this a better point of contact with a person than email?
    1. Activity is fully traceable
  16. What do you think is one thing that’s overlooked when it comes to the intersection of blockchain and retail?
  17. Too many use cases
  18. What’s one book that inspired you professionally or personally?
    1. The Hard Things About Hard Things
    2. Endurance - Shackleton’s Journey to the Southpole
  19. Spend time with the customers, try to understand their problems?
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:17.039 Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael but 2 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.960 and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital and innovation in 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:25.480 both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoying this content, you could 4 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.679 subscribe to by newsletter the consumer VC DOT sub stackcom, to get each new 5 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:35.000 episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your inbox. Our guest today is 6 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:40.439 Matt Nichols, founder of Commerce ventures. Commerce ventures backs entrepreneurs from every background, 7 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:45.719 building the infrastructure for tomorrow's industries. So of their investments include shop talk, 8 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:50.320 trow Simon and retail. Next in this episode, Matt and I focus 9 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:57.039 our time deconstructing web three and seen how web three can be impactful to brands 10 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:07.439 and change retail. Without further Redo, here's Matt. Matt, thank you 11 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.280 so much for joining me here today. How are you doing? Well, 12 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:14.040 sad to be here? No, I really appreciate it. So how'd you 13 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:18.799 heat your start inventor capital? So my first job at of college was actually 14 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.159 invest in banking. I had Morgan Stanley kind of the height of the first 15 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.319 Internet boom. So I joined Morgan stanleys toeck group in one thousand nine hundred 16 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:27.040 and ninety nine. So I spent a couple of years doing kind of tech 17 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.400 invest in banking through the boom and then I initial bust and then actually had 18 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.640 the opportunity to the jump in a more Stanley venture partners which was more in 19 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:38.239 Stanley's in house bench capital arm, which is really where learned vegue capital in 20 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:42.159 the early two thousand and SI looking valley. That's where I started. That's 21 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:46.040 really cool. It's really cool at what was the inspiration behind commerce VC? 22 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.239 So it was started by my partner Dan, who had worked to get we'd 23 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.159 were together at highland capital for for many years out of Boston, and really 24 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:59.920 the Vision for the fund was twofold one that sector focus funds that were really 25 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:02.719 attractive way to differentiate oneself in the market where there's more and more vech capitalists. 26 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.479 So having a sector focus really made sense. And our specific focus on 27 00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:14.319 commerce technology, broadly retail attack Infintech, just had a belief that how consumers 28 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:19.080 were shopping, how they're paying for things and the whole fintach ecosystem, we're 29 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:23.120 all changing at a pretty rapid rate and that building a sector focus venture fund 30 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:27.240 focused on kind of how people, we like to say how they shop, 31 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.000 spend, save and secure their assets. We called the commerce continuum and really 32 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:35.599 everything we've done since that has been focused on that focus. We always attracted 33 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.439 by those specific verticals itself before you're investing. Yes, so actually even before 34 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.840 the fund was started, the two of US had been focusing on those two 35 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:47.479 areas independently inside of another venure capital firm. So Dan was investing in Fintach 36 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:53.680 early on and I is investing in Commerce next generation players and in the commerce 37 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:55.400 space. So we were sort of initially doing that another venture firm. So 38 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:59.680 it was pretty obvious to bring that over to the new fund. Why do 39 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:04.199 you think that right now we're such an interesting place when it comes to technological 40 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.800 innovation that could be disruptive for retail? There's a couple different reasons. One, 41 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:14.280 I think some of the standardization of retail platforms, whether it's shopify or 42 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:16.360 field force, commerce cloud or something, you know, both from the Monolithic 43 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:23.319 to kind of the next shot aheadless players, has really allowed retailers to utilize 44 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:27.000 an off the shelf platform and then add all kinds of really exciting tools and 45 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.960 technology that can really plug in pretty seamlessly, whereas if you were to rewind 46 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:36.919 ten years plus. Anytime you're starting to trying to sell a new technology and 47 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:40.719 too a retailer brand, there's a huge amount of immigration and and challenges associated 48 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:45.439 with adopting those. So think there's one is a sort of technology challenge and 49 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:52.439 to just an increasing pressure to compete with the likes of Amazon and others, 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.639 and that has been there forever and I think what's exciting now is your ability 51 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.840 to build a brand or a retailer. It's just much easier from a technological 52 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:00.759 perspective. I was lots of other challenges, but at least at that this 53 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:05.520 point, technology is enabled those next generation brands retailers to be launched and at 54 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.400 a speed which you just couldn't do before. Yeah, so I mean I 55 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.520 totally agree with you instantly that. We certainly talk a lot about mom this 56 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.040 show, about how it's easier than ever to maybe start a brand online or 57 00:04:15.079 --> 00:04:18.439 do experience, obviously with the infrastructure that we have now with shopify, with 58 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.959 itwus and as well as Amazon. where, then, do you see the 59 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:27.240 opportunity that, since it is so much easier to launch and brands Ali, 60 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.639 where do you think on the infrastructure side of things, they're kind of looking 61 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:33.120 at those a whole munch different categories that we think are really exciting. You 62 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:35.920 know, one, I would say is is sort of recommerce and the use 63 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:42.839 good space, using the sort of explosion of consumers adopting that model. And 64 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.519 we believe, you know, the first generation of that was may of these 65 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:47.800 market places, whether it's the real real or posh mark or others. We're 66 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.240 seeing now and increasing interest from retailers and brands to get into that space. 67 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:56.439 So finding ways, if I'm a big retailer, remote wellknown brand, you 68 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.000 know, how do I participate in this, use good economy and find ways 69 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:03.480 to offer those offerings to my consumers, not just have them transact with my 70 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:08.160 products on someone else's platform. So with you folks like kind of going to 71 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:13.279 little lemon and arc terics and levies and many others are now embracing that trend 72 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.759 and find ways to serve their customers, given that there is that need for 73 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.319 you is good. So I think that's a big category of interest. I 74 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:23.439 would say another is sort of the next generation of I was the headless platforms 75 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.920 for commerce. So you get the big model with both Pill for Scommerce, 76 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.560 cloud and and shopify on the lower end, but I think we're seeing. 77 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:31.959 If you are a big retail or brand, you need more flexibility than those 78 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:35.079 platforms can provide, but you also don't want to build from scratch. So 79 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.399 the launch of these headless platforms, and I'll your ability to change the front 80 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.160 and change the back end, pull out your inventory system, pull out your 81 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.279 check out is more excited it's ever been before. So people kind of get 82 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.680 the best of best of both world, which is in off the shell platform, 83 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.160 but get to customize in the way that makes sense for their business. 84 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:55.160 And then I think the third era that we're spending a lot of time in 85 00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:01.040 is sort of blockchain and crypto and how that intersects with with retail. Obviously 86 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.920 lots of hype in the market in those areas, but we think that there 87 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:09.879 are some big opportunities for blockchain and Crypto to do some things in retail that 88 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:14.360 are both exciting to consumers and and potentially they happen in the near term. 89 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.120 First of all, thanks so much for stun I really like those three maybe 90 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:20.839 macro categories or just whether you're thinking about when it comes to helping brands and 91 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:26.959 also helping a customers. Just think about the commerce landscape within blockchain. It's 92 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.319 kind of interesting intersection between botching retail, block chain and payments. Where do 93 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:36.120 you think are some of the big opportunities and how does that customer experience, 94 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:41.360 especially like in store experience, may be changed due to blockchain? Our Lens 95 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.759 has been what if of the real practical applications? What could retailers, your 96 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.160 brands mutilize today? And those are the where we spent most of our time. 97 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:50.480 I think there's some far out things that one could imagine, but I 98 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.279 think we spend more of our time in sort of the here and now. 99 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:58.160 I think a couple different categories. So one is clearly authentication. It actually 100 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.720 relates back to that use good focus that I had. I think there's a 101 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:06.480 really interesting use case for NFT's and the blockchain generally for authentication of goods, 102 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:12.240 particularly high priced goods, which give consumers two things, not only sort of 103 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.199 a link to a digital identity of this product. That could be for authenticity, 104 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.240 it could be for understanding where the product was made, but also give 105 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:25.560 you a digital certificate could that can then make that the transacting of that product 106 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.879 in the secondary market that much more secure and easy for for consumer. So 107 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.759 I think authentication is a big category that is happening today. Obviously, two 108 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:40.360 of the creation of digital goods, so virtual products that are generated either as 109 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.399 sort of a digital twin to a physical good or brand new digital goods. 110 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:47.399 It just live in the metaverse, live in gaming. I think there's some 111 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.720 big opportunities there a little bit earlier stage, because I think the challenge there, 112 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.519 and we can go into a little more details around so the interoperability in 113 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.639 the bubility to bring interesting digital goods into platforms where consumers are already interacting with 114 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:01.279 a little bit challenging. But I think we'll see that. And I think 115 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:07.120 the third most interesting categories around customer loyalty and if you think about sort of 116 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.959 the ethos of web three, where those who participate early in a community get 117 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.600 the benefit of that community over time, I think this really interesting application of 118 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.560 that for early stage brands where certain consumers or advocates can have an outside impact 119 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:24.519 on that brand and how do you give them the value for being an early 120 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.240 advocate of growing a brand? So those are a couple of the most interesting 121 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.759 categories that were folks on today. No, I mean yeah, totally. 122 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.399 I'm always curious about customer loyalty mean. What do you think has been broken? 123 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:43.879 Might be the wrong term, but in the web to era or just, 124 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.240 I guess, custoer loyalty as we see it now. What do you 125 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:52.799 think really changes that the website can really add towards customer loyalty systems, specifically, 126 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.799 that could really help retailers and brands? I think you know loyalty in 127 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.519 the web to and before era filery transaction right, maybe as you get a 128 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:07.200 discount for something or you're building up some dollar points that you can then redeem 129 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.799 over time and it just feels very transactional. I think what web three does 130 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:18.080 or could do as relates to loyalty and brands is remaking consumers feel like they're 131 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.840 a part of the community, part of the company and they really have a 132 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.559 vested upside in those companies being successful. So, incause all the the web 133 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.120 tookit use cases you make a discount or a credit, but if that brand 134 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.279 really takes off, you're no better off than you were before. So I 135 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.679 think that's where the real real opportunity is, and we've seen this even in 136 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.639 other applications. We should have the company called bumped that enables stock rewards for 137 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.600 big in a public companies which can deuce has some of the same dynamic, 138 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.559 because what they found, others have found, is if you have believe that 139 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.919 you were an owner of a business in some way, shape or form, 140 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:54.399 you were an act in different ways. We're almost regardless of the amount of 141 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:58.240 ownership you have, and I think web three gives you a much more, 142 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.000 much lighter weight version of doing that, rather than trying to dolot equity to 143 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.159 everything, the consumer who buys a product from your shop by store. So 144 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.919 I think it's really that sense of community and the set of unbounded upside that 145 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.600 you might have if you are an early consumer advocate of a brand, that 146 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.159 really takes off. I know that your focus, obviously, correct me if 147 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.080 I'm wrong. Your focus is not invest in the brands themselves but more like 148 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.759 the underlying technology. But could you see a world where brands actually pool, 149 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:30.279 they be part of their cap table towards token, or or maybe be it's 150 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.320 a Dow for like the early community members, maybe the early customers that were 151 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:37.480 very excited about the brand coming into existence? Yeah, I think. I 152 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:43.240 think there is opportunity to do that and whether it's pool across brands or just 153 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.600 you know using tokens is the way to fund the business at the early days. 154 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.360 From these the advocates, I think there's definitely an opportunity there. Obviously 155 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.279 there's some security laws and such that one has to be careful with if you're 156 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.879 trying to do some of those things right. But but short of that, 157 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.200 yes, I think there's a big opportunity. I think brands today, if 158 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.000 you were to start a brand of date, given your inability to really target 159 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.399 the way you used to on facebook or other platforms, there's going to need 160 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:13.440 to be another driver of customer acquisition and this could be a pretty powerful one. 161 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.039 Yeah, absolutely, because we talked about I feel like maybe the Buzzword 162 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.799 of two thousand and twenty one was community. In my opinion, partially or 163 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.960 maybe the reason why that brands were talking so much about community was because, 164 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.720 and we talked about this song on the show a lot and you just brought 165 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.639 it up, about how facebook ads, the Arbor targe opportunities are really no 166 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:35.720 more and so you have to find other ways at the very small stages in 167 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.279 order to grow where you maybe have a two high CPAS, where it actually 168 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.720 makes sense to grow on a facebook, for example, as a good marketing 169 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.320 agency, and so this, as you say, it could be a way 170 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:52.679 in order to obviously reward people for for being customers, but then to participate 171 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.159 the upside and they maybe further incentivize them to be part of the brand or 172 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.080 really being part of the community. Yeah, I totally believe that and I 173 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:03.120 think the community unity will be at the heart of customer requisition. And historically 174 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.759 all you got was a sort of good feeling for participating this community, but 175 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.759 really didn't get me the upside and the world where you have that good feeling 176 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:15.919 of participating in the proud like view of being associated with this brand that grows, 177 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.639 but add on an economic value onto it. I think it just makes 178 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:20.840 that much more powerful. No, totally backing up a little bit. I 179 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.879 know that when you were thinking about different opportunities on this kind of retail and 180 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.360 blockchain intersection, and the one that you brought up was the opportunity may be 181 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.000 produce a double good and having a digital asset may be an nnft version of 182 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.399 the physical asset when, especially when it comes to luxury products. How do 183 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:45.879 you also think about how maybe brands and also obviously the interlying technology, if 184 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.799 it's they're or not for partnerships to participate in different, you know, online 185 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:56.159 platforms, so they're nft or unique digital good could be featured in a particular 186 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:58.759 game or, you know, something that they actually participate online in. I 187 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:03.039 would start first, like first principles, which is, does one believe that 188 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:09.879 people are going to want to have digital versions of their most beloved brands inside 189 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:15.720 of a online community? And I think the answer to that is almost definitively 190 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.679 yes. Right, whether it's you know, is my kids on roblocks, 191 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.000 if they could have some cool like Nike shoes, they would absolutely spend their 192 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.519 allowance to go try to get those. And I think, and whether it's 193 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.799 on you know, the Meta versus Games, even just by digital social media, 194 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.919 the ability to show off your physical goods in a digital world, I 195 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.600 think is almost surely going to be a thing. So if you believe that, 196 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.960 and he's okay, what's the path to getting there? And I think 197 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.000 the only reason that I this has not exploded faster I believe that the places 198 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:52.840 where people spend their digital time today are largely closed, especially the sort of 199 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.759 Meta verses which are, you know, the gaming platforms, and the ability 200 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:01.320 to get digital product in those gaming platforms is pretty much blocked by whoever the 201 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.519 publisher of that game is. And I'll see. If you, you know, 202 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.799 you listen to Meta their belief is they're going to build a huge metaverse, 203 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.600 and I think others are on that too. I suspect that those Meta 204 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.480 verses will be much more open and which case this is barrier that is historically 205 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.159 stop products from getting into these games that are largely closed, will start to 206 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.000 go away. But I think that's the oning that's stopping this from happening. 207 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.200 You know, it's a little bit cumbersome for brands to get their products into 208 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:28.000 digital spaces, but I think we will see that change relatively quickly because I 209 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.279 think consumers want it and it's a great thing for brands. When you think 210 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.480 about the future of and maybe you hinted at it, but when you think 211 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.480 about the future of the metavers maybe first of all baby should back up and 212 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.320 just say what is the Meta verse and then, as a follow up question, 213 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.919 what does that actually look like? Because, as you say, right 214 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.919 now it's a lot of kind of closed ecosystems. But do you see it 215 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.720 that some of these close ecosists are actually can start opening up? I'm not 216 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.840 sure. So I think you've got two things at play and they will have 217 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:58.879 to if the open Meta verses start to take off. So I mean at 218 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:05.279 the you you look at what is met as Verton view of the metaverse, 219 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:07.799 and now I think it's probably something like ready player one right, where you're 220 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:13.000 sort of in this community doing everything open. I think the challenged historically with 221 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.840 these kind of very open metaverses is that you kind of show up and don't 222 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.759 know what to do. There isn't a lot to do, whereas the ones 223 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:22.720 that have clearly worked historically have been the games right, which is it's super 224 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.200 obvious how you do it. You reason to be in there is to play 225 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.240 this game. At the same time you want to express yourself with products, 226 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.919 etc. So I think you will start to see, probably before the closed 227 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.360 systems open up, I think you'll start to see individual brand striking more deals 228 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.879 with more of these gaming platforms where the where the activity is happening today. 229 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.840 I think they just will have to happen. You're seeing a little bit in 230 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.600 row blocks, fortnight, etc. But I think you'll see a lot more 231 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.279 of that. And then at the same time you've got this parallel development of 232 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.000 these open metaverses. I'm not smart enough to figure out what those are going 233 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.840 to look like, but I think people are dedicating enough money, meant effort 234 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.200 towards finding something that will really draw consumers in and a more open way that 235 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.320 someone will figure it out and then it'll be obvious for brands to come in. 236 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.039 Yeah, that seems to make sense, just in terms of figuring out 237 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.360 ways you can actually open up and have a you being able to interact with 238 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.279 maybe different universes, but also, at the same time, I think, 239 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:22.799 in a big way. I guess maybe the first step is to have your 240 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.879 identity which includes, you know, maybe all the entities you own, for 241 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.759 example, going from you know, met some Meta verse, Hmm, and 242 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:36.679 I think that will definitely happen. Right as you bring up the inoperability and 243 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:41.120 the buildity to bring these digital versions of things authenticated in a real way, 244 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.440 you know, those experiences that consumers will love. That we're still always out, 245 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.200 but I think that will happen. How do you also think about I 246 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.080 know we've talked a little bit about the metaverse, which is fantastic. I 247 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:56.039 talk about the metaverse, but how do you also think about changes in the 248 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.360 instore experiences like when it consumer walks into the door of a retail shop. 249 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.319 What goes through your mind in terms of opportunity that you're seeing when it comes 250 00:17:03.359 --> 00:17:07.799 to this, you know, intersection of just technology and retail that you think 251 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.279 could make a big impact? I think it's a little harder to think to 252 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.920 that. I mean there's some like you can imagine a world where if you 253 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.640 have certain brands associate with with certain NPT's associate with the brand, that you 254 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:23.279 get some special experience or conciteer's service as you walk in. I think that 255 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:29.440 might be a thing. I think probably the probably the most vivid version or 256 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.480 most specific version you'll see in the store is, I think, the connection 257 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:37.200 of a physical product to a digital identity, whether it's through Qr code or 258 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.920 NFC. I think we're just at the early stages of that, where you 259 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.799 can walk into a store and you can see the province of this of this 260 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.079 shirt. You know which factory was this specific shirt, which factory was produced 261 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.079 in. You know any ecological impact you might want to ask like to view. 262 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.960 You could see that just by scanning the item. So I think, 263 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.200 I mean that's probably the most vivid thing you'll see in the store, which 264 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.079 is, you know, a link of these physical products to their digital identity 265 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.839 which goes all the way back to, you know, the factory that it 266 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.680 was built in. So that's probably the most meaningful thing you'll see, I 267 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.759 think, in the CPG world also, you you'll see that connection, less 268 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.359 so for providence and things like that, but more so for building a direct 269 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:25.839 interaction between that brand and the end consumer for repurchase or for other reasons, 270 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.960 to build a direct brands to the physical product. So I think those are 271 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:32.079 the things will probably see. I don't think a lot of those things require 272 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:37.319 the blockchain, but subtangentially, probably most relevant. Yeah, no, no, 273 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.759 no, that's that's really helpful. Up. Do you do you think 274 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:47.279 that, you know, brands of today need to embrace web three and, 275 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.160 you know, thinking through all these different topics, like, you know, 276 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.759 may be introducing teas or tokens. Do you think that brands of today need 277 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:57.920 to embrace web three in order to win in this next generation? Right now? 278 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.039 I think if you say need, I think the answer is no. 279 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.759 Like, do they absolutely need to? I think if you are an early 280 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.960 especially the established brands, but if I'm an early brand, that I don't 281 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:11.680 have all those weapons of facebook targeting. I think you would be missing a 282 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.440 big opportunity if you did not write. You're building your community from scratch, 283 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.279 you have the most ability to give out, you know, effectively, equity 284 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.359 to your community at the early stages. I think those are the brands that 285 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.079 have the biggest opportunity, but I think what they have to be doing is 286 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.160 experimenting right and understanding the best ways. If I'm existing brand, to take 287 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.240 my address, I'm going Bultcha Gamana, taking this dress, and how do 288 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:38.160 I create this digital twin or digital product and how to consumers want to interact 289 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:42.400 with that? I think you're missing out today because if you don't learn today, 290 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.400 when it becomes mandatory, you want to be understanding to be able to 291 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:51.079 take advantage of where where this market goes. And a lot of folks talk 292 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:56.960 about blockchain. You think that blockchain actually won't be able to or you don't 293 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.279 actually need block chain to solve this problem, but we had maybe web to 294 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.279 will suffice. Is there anything that kind of comes to mind in that? 295 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.000 Yeah, I actually think one of the most talked about applications, which I 296 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.920 actually think probably doesn't need as much and doesn't need a blockchain is as much 297 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.079 as people think it does. Is Sort of like supply chain traceability, and 298 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.559 a lot of people talk about hey, I loved it, like put all 299 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:23.000 this data on the blockchain of where this product traversed so that anybody in the 300 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:27.200 community, consumers, suppliers, etc. Could see that. Well, in 301 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:32.319 theory that sounds interesting. I think many of the challenges the people have had 302 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.160 with supply chain technology broadly, you know, how do you get everybody in 303 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:41.680 the sort of the chain fun intended to participate in this ecosystem? Doesn't really 304 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.960 change whether you're using blockchain or a standard database. I think that's one of 305 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.880 the biggest challenges. I think to you know, really ensuring if you have 306 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.440 this digital identity, how do you make sure it's tied to the to the 307 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.519 physical product, because there's lots of ways that those two could get separated and 308 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.039 then the value goes away. I think, you know, in a couple 309 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.839 cases, things like diamonds or other products which are actually you with with a 310 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.960 bunch of really interesting identified defication technologies, you can keep tying the back to 311 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.119 the blockchain. Those are probably the more the bigger applications. I just think 312 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:17.440 supply chain of the problem is huge and it's not the public visibility of the 313 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.319 blockchain, it's the getting everybody on board. So it feels like the use 314 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.119 of blockchain for that is a little bit, a little bit overblown. What's 315 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:29.960 your due diligence process when you're looking at opportunities and met with founders within bet 316 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.839 are focused on building block Sain technologies with maybe retail applications? I'm gonna I 317 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.400 think it's probably not that much different than anything we've looked in kind of the 318 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.400 retail tech landscape, which is, you know, our focus is always been 319 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:48.440 with a sector lens applied to it, and I think our ability to connect 320 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.559 with many of our friends in the brand and retailer space and really just talk 321 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.400 to them one on one about are you currently or are you going to adopt 322 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.359 this sort of technology, or would you under what circumstances? The most of 323 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.799 our diligence revolves around talking to those brands, read those who might be the 324 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.759 ultimate customers, are utilize users of this technology, and really get a sense 325 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.200 for where their head is right and it. Is this a today problem, 326 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.720 is a tomorrow problem or is this a hey, never makes the top ten 327 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:21.200 priorities, so doesn't get traction. So I the bulk of our diligence revolves 328 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:25.160 around really understand the market and the customers and trying to understand whether they're ready, 329 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.119 because I think for a lot of these things almost certainly going to happen, 330 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.400 but your success of your investment is predicated on getting the timing right, 331 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.519 which is a little bit tricky to figure out. Yeah, no, I 332 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.680 had on a Mike Gafari a couple months ago and he was saying how the 333 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.000 one thing about the metaverse and bought in technology. I mean maybe it's having 334 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:47.119 this moment right now, but we don't quite know when the petty's going to 335 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.599 drop when it comes to large scale option, and I think that's part of 336 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.559 the big if obviously when investing, because it seems like it's still early, 337 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.759 but maybe it's right on time. So it's really, really tough to know. 338 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.680 Yeah, that's why we focused on. Well, there's lots of applications 339 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.480 that you could presume over time. You know, trying to focus on who 340 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.839 what are the near term, you know, short term applications of this technology. 341 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.880 The brands are doing today. I mean people are already issuing and FT's 342 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.720 for expensive watches right in conjunction so that actually the activity is happening today. 343 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.079 So could you imagine more of it happening? Of course, and you don't 344 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.720 have to jump through a whole much of hoops, you know, mental hoops, 345 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.000 to understand where they could go in the short term. What else do 346 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.200 you think about the current you know nft market? You know, obviously there's 347 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.359 a very big rush. It's very exciting. That's been, I'm happy, 348 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:38.799 over the past year two. How do you think about you know and ift's 349 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.680 maybe that are here to say, versus ones that aren't? I think most 350 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.119 of the end of t's don't make sense, but that's not said that I 351 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.640 don't think enough tas makes sense, because I actually think they do. So 352 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.359 I think we are at this experimentation phase where we're seeing huge numbers of things 353 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.480 that people are trying, from art to Crypto Punks, to board apes to 354 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:00.759 what have you, really to see what's going to stick. I think today 355 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.319 the prices of those assets are driven more by speculation rather than what's actually going 356 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.160 to stick. So I think we just need time to sort of cure that 357 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:12.000 out. But do I think that digital are enabled through nft is going to 358 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.559 be a big thing absolutely, Yes, right. So I think that's that's 359 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.359 one category that I think it's good. It's going to take off and I 360 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.640 think there will be other instant categories that we haven't even imagined yet. And 361 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:25.640 then there's a bunch of enabling technology. Is like, you know, I 362 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:30.799 imagine that nft for individual collectible product and that collectible product can live in a 363 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.279 vault somewhere. Well, you and I are trading that digital version of that 364 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.759 product that's back by the physical in a way. That would have been super 365 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.759 painful if I was sending a trading card and then you would send training card 366 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.440 and somebody else. So I think those sorts of applications are much more near 367 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.359 and valuable to consumers. But then they'll be the whole thing that all set 368 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.240 of nfts that we thought were stupid and end up being actually lasting, have 369 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:56.720 lasting value. So I think just too are little UMB I agree with you 370 00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.480 that I think obviously enfis are here to stay. I do think, though, 371 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:03.799 only a small percentage of the current NFC's are here to stay. How 372 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.119 do you describe like? You know, when talking to some of my older 373 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:10.240 family members who are like, oh my gosh, why do we people even 374 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:14.559 pay for NFT's or what's even the attraction? You spend a lot of time 375 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:18.880 in this world. How do you justify anyone that's maybe Barish on nft overall? 376 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:23.400 How do you think about why someone would purchase an NFT and also what 377 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.880 it symbolizes? I was looking for a knowledges because that's just easier for people 378 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:32.480 understand. I think trading cards are that the easiest analogy to give to anybody 379 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.160 who you know doesn't believe an NFTS, because I think it's in some ways 380 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.000 to the same thing. Right. There's no intrinsic value into the product itself, 381 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.920 but the uniqueness and the rareness of that product is what drives value and 382 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.400 the overall communities view of that value is what drives the value, and I 383 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:53.279 think nfts are simply a digital version of that. So I think that's one 384 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.480 way to describe sort of a pure nft, not not tied to any physical 385 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.319 product. I think the authentication use gets random. Tie's a little bit easier 386 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.160 to explain, which is this is a digital certificate. Think of it as 387 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:08.720 your Gia Certificate for a digital GIA certificate for a diamond at which is a 388 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.400 little bit easier for people understand, but I think that's the analogy actically uses, 389 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:17.200 that is the trading card analogy. Or something has value even though it's 390 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:22.240 there's no underlying intrinsic value of the product totally. And I also appreciate you 391 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.200 that analogy with trading cards. I don't think we've had another person bring up 392 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:29.440 that analogy before, so that's that's really helpful. How do you also just 393 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.599 for brands that maybe don't quite understand why, you know, owning a digital 394 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.160 wallet is, how powerful that is in terms of also the customer identification that 395 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.319 you get with it. Talks to me a little bit about how you think 396 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:47.359 about why, if you introduce like tokens and they're actually part of your community, 397 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:51.000 like why is it actually a lot more powerful maybe than you know an 398 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.680 access, for example, to an email? I think what's interesting about blockchain 399 00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.240 and Crypto is that while in some ways your identities are anonymous, the activity 400 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:04.960 is fully traceable, like all the transactions that happen of this good. You 401 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.039 are in the plane, open view for everybody to see. So if you 402 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.079 were to say hey, if you were Gucci or ms or any brand, 403 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.119 wouldn't you be interested in understanding we are all of your products since the dawn 404 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:23.200 of time have gone. Who has them now? which hands that they they 405 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:29.319 trade, that they pass through before getting to their ultimate sort of owner and 406 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.960 with some additional technology, would you have the ability to interface and communicate with 407 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.240 folks in that chain? It's a pretty powerful concept in a way that you 408 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:44.279 know, email addresses is relatively simple and and really doesn't give you a sense 409 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:47.880 for what's going on your community. So that's probably what I would would say 410 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.319 and try to describe it, but we're sort of a still at Nason stage 411 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.200 of like it's not clear out. Brands could do it today, but I 412 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.920 think in the future will find more ways that they can utilize that. Understanding 413 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.160 what's happening in the blockchainder them should a customers in a much better way. 414 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.240 Yeah, I mean I think it's a great way to describe it. As 415 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.880 you say, this is still very much, for so very much only the 416 00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.039 tip of the iceberg with this. We're still trying to understand what the use 417 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:12.279 cases could be and how powerful it could be to actually have a wallet and 418 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:18.119 what that actually could unlock for a brand. What do you think is one 419 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:23.279 thing about block chain and Crypto that you think is maybe largely misunderstood by people 420 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.079 that are either have an understanding of it or if they have undertained of it, 421 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:32.920 or people that don't. I think probably goes back too many people try 422 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:37.759 to come up with use cases for the blockchain L Crypto, where, you 423 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.480 know, a standard database with just suffice. I think people trying to find 424 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:48.000 too many use cases for CRYPTO and blockchain and they're really have to be important 425 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.920 elements of the use case that make it valid and, frankly, worth the 426 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.119 overhead of doing it. I think this I didn't you know. Idea of 427 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.960 of community makes sense. Authentication makes sense if there's some reason why everybody in 428 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.039 the world needs to see how these transactions are playing out and a central identity 429 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.920 or center authority doesn't make a lot of sense. That's powerful, but I 430 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:12.480 think there's just an over over use and overstretching of how to find new applications 431 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:17.480 for crypto beyond where it really makes sense. Yeah, I know that totally 432 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:19.279 and that probably makes your job a bit harder, since you have a lot 433 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:22.680 of a lot of different opportunities and your kind of seeing what actually could be 434 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:29.519 the right use cases or not. What's one book that has inspired you professionally 435 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.440 and one book that is inspired you personally, I think one book on professional 436 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.400 and I'm not sure what the inspire is the right word, but I just 437 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:42.079 that resonated with me. So I was a CEO of a start up for 438 00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.359 a number of years and I read Ben Horwitz is the hard thing about hard 439 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:51.039 things, and it was the one book that like I felt like it really 440 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:56.759 described the startup CEO or startup executive journey and like just how brutally hard it 441 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.480 is, and I think it it inspires me you to back the founders that 442 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.799 we back today, both my experience. They're just being reminded of it by 443 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.480 reading that book in a way that it is just so hard to build these 444 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.640 startups and a set of appreciation for the CEOS who do that and our desire 445 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:17.480 as edge capitalists to support them with both capital, which is probably the easier 446 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:23.359 part, but also just support and understanding and help. I think really asmires 447 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.359 me on on the on the professional front. So I don't preignment, but 448 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:33.200 my choice in the unprofessional front maybe it's on the same realm of like just, 449 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.480 you know, getting through and making it endurance that you know the story 450 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:41.200 of Shackleton's journey through, I think, the South Pole and and just like 451 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.960 the perseverance and leadership of someone who like going to that journey. I was 452 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.519 reminded of it because they found his boat like two weeks ago, and so 453 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.440 that journey of almost all was lost and then you still came out victorious. 454 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.200 I think was was pretty inspiring from a personal effective my found a question to 455 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.400 you is, what is one piece of advice that you have for founders who 456 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:07.319 are building? I think it's really to spend time with the customers and really 457 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:14.000 try to understand their problems rather than trying to create a solution and then go 458 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:18.000 looking for a problem. And I think it particular resonates for me inside of 459 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.880 kind of those founders are selling into retailers and brands. Be It so obvious, 460 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.359 as we talked to the retail from brands, if you if you aren't 461 00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.240 one of the top one, two or three priorities for these customer ors, 462 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.200 you just can't get the time of day. And I see so many founders 463 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:37.359 struggle with, you know, a problem they think is important but haven't truly 464 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.480 vetted it with those customers and understand not only it is is it a problem, 465 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.640 but is it a top one, two or three problem for a certain 466 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:48.839 customer set, and I think just doing your work to really understand that, 467 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.480 rather than spending huge amounts of time to to beat your head against the wall 468 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.480 and not being able to get to the executives because even if it is an 469 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.559 important problem, it's not so important that then you drop everything to meet with 470 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.680 you and go hear about some crazy start up and why you should pay money 471 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:06.519 for to buy the solution that. Thank you so much for your time. 472 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.799 It's has been a lot of fun. Chet, thanks, thanks, thanks 473 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:12.440 for having me on. Love the show and said that it was so happy 474 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.920 to be on it. So thanks for taking time with me. And there 475 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:16.640 you have it. It was such a pleasure chatting with Matt. I hope 476 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:20.839 you all enjoyed listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I love it if 477 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.200 you'd write a review on the apple podcast. You're also welcome to follow me 478 00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:27.440 your host, Mike, on twitter at Mike Guelb, and also follow for 479 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:50.200 episode announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening. Everyone,