Welcome to our new website!
Aug. 25, 2022

Nick Moran (New Stack Ventures) - Going from podcast to syndicate to fund, how he’s investing in founders outside major markets and the state of the current VC market

Nick Moran (New Stack Ventures) - Going from podcast to syndicate to fund, how he’s investing in founders outside major markets and the state of the current VC market

Our guest today is Nick Moran, General Partner of New Stack Ventures. New Stack's mission is to invest in the Outsiders. Nick is also the host of The Full Ratchet. We discuss why he’s bearish about Web 3 short term, how he thinks about deploying capital in this current market and how he thinks about long-term sustainability of a company when he invests. Without further ado, here’s Nick.

Some of the questions I ask:

  1. You’re long Web 3, but during the short term you aren’t investing in it. Mind explaining your reasoning?
  2. How have you seen valuations change in companies that are outside silicon valley? Is it as drastic?
    1. What’s still overlooked when it comes to ecosystems outside the bay?
  3. How do you view this investing period? How do you think about deploying capital currently? Has this environment changed how you invest?
  4. How do you think about company sustainability, profitability vs. growth?
  5. What about consumer technology do you focus on in today’s environment?
  6. Walk us through your diligence process.
  7. What are the must-haves from a founding team?
  8. What’s your biggest piece of advice for new fund managers?
  9. Recently raised over $40 million for your latest fund. Why that amount specifically?
  10. What’s one thing you would change about venture capital?
  11. What’s one book that inspired you personally and one book that’s inspired you professionally?
    1. Can’t Hurt Me by David Gogans
    2. Who is Michael Ovitz?
  12. What’s one piece of advice for founders?
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:15.400 Oh, welcome to the consumer vie see. I am your host, Mike 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:20.440 Gelb, and on this podcast we talk about consumer innovation and venture capital. 3 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.320 Our guest today on this episode is Nick Moran. He's a general partner of 4 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.280 new stack ventures. New Stack's mission is to invest in the outsiders. Nick 5 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.439 is also the host of the full ratchet podcast, which is one of my 6 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:39.640 inspirations actually for starting the Consumer Vic. That was his introduction to venture capital 7 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.039 when he's started creating syndicates and now he has a fund. It's a really 8 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:47.159 cool story that I'm excited to share. We discuss why he's bearished as well 9 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:52.240 about web three short term, but bullish long term, how he thinks about 10 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:57.119 deploying capital in today's market and the long term sustainability of the companies that he 11 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:07.560 invests in. Without further ADO, here's nick. Nick, thank you so 12 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:10.120 much for joining me today. How are you? I'm great, Mike. 13 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.079 Always a pleasure, awesome. I really appreciate you being here. So I 14 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:17.439 would love to kind of learn the origin story of how you started full ratchet 15 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:21.000 and then, as well, new stack ventures. Well, I left Corporate 16 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:27.719 America and I started angel investing on my own and I learned a bit about 17 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:33.599 start up investing doing that and kind of the importance of building a network, 18 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:40.000 building deal flow, helping portfolio companies and, uh, just had this discovery 19 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:44.280 that nobody was doing audio right. There was a lot of content online, 20 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.040 a lot of people were blogging, there was a couple of video blogs, 21 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.560 but there was there were no audio resources out there. Um, so I 22 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:55.400 started a podcast and shortly thereafter, you know, a few other folks did 23 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.920 too, and I think it's really changed. It's changed a lot of the 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.599 environment. You know, there's a lot more interesting venture there's a lot more 25 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:07.879 early stage BCS, angels, even startup founders now than there than there were 26 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.400 when I started. You know, a fun fact is when I started the 27 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:16.280 show, in versus now there are more startups today in the Midwest, or, 28 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.240 sorry, more unicorns start ups today in the midwestern there were when I 29 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.879 started the show in the bay area back in so in less than a decade 30 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:29.719 the Midwest has has caught up in in surpassed the bay area from the standpoint 31 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:31.719 of of UNICORNS. So yeah, so that's a fun fact. I started 32 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:36.960 the podcast and then new stack came shortly thereafter new stack was started, we 33 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:40.280 did ten SPVS on the angelist platform way back in the early days. You 34 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:45.159 know, Um Neval, Tim Ferris, Jason, Calicanas, Gil Panchina, 35 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:49.280 you know, just a handful of syndicates and then that became a couple of 36 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:53.000 funds a few years later. That's awesome. Why? Um, I know 37 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:59.840 one of the thesis towards new stack ventures is investing in companies outside Silicon Valley. 38 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:01.439 I know that you were, I just said you were based in stelling, 39 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:06.560 a valley. What made you move to Chicago Leave The bay? Was 40 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.360 it just opportunities that you were seeing or kind of wanted to explore and maybe 41 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.439 be closer to the action with investing outside, to look a valley or like? 42 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:15.159 What? What was kind of the rationale there? Well, Chicago's home 43 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.960 for myself and my wife and we were not in the bay area. We 44 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.800 were in Santa Barbara, so for their south, and then went to Colorado 45 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:27.639 for a couple of years and and just kind of found our way back home. 46 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.039 You know, when I got to Chicago and started to start up investing, 47 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:34.599 I realized the environment was quite different than it was in California. Not 48 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.840 Nearly as many investors and terms were kind of all over the place, certainly 49 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:46.080 not not just start up unfriendly, but I would say VC unfriendly. You 50 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:51.439 know, there are ways that you can kind of screw a financing and a 51 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:57.360 company up from the early stages by utilizing more private equity type structures. So, 52 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.680 yeah, I got back to Chicago and and sort of developed this thesis 53 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.840 over time of investing in outsiders. You know, I would see folks that 54 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:10.080 were not insiders. They didn't come from Cilicon Valley, they didn't work in 55 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.479 big tech and they didn't go to Ivy League schools, but they were just 56 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:19.600 incredible, exceptional professionals in building category defining companies, just not on the coast. 57 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.480 And so that's kind of where the thesis came from, just finding more 58 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.759 of those folks that were, you know, severely undervalued assets. So what 59 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.360 do you think? Obviously we've seen like an explosion of as I mean, 60 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:36.639 as you mentioned, UNICORNS coming from the middle of the country between the coasts. 61 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:41.920 What do you still think is maybe a misconception about could be the Midwest, 62 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.160 could be the south, could be, you know, the rockies? 63 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.600 Where are we at now? How has it changed over the past few years 64 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:51.279 since you started, and what do you still see maybe as like a misconception 65 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:55.720 from investors that are on the coast. I think it's come a long way. 66 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:01.959 Right like the pandemic had many unfortunate that outcomes. One fortunate outcome for 67 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:09.560 the startup ecosystem and for venture capital is coastal investors started investing in the middle 68 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.800 of the country startups, and that's something we've been doing since the beginning. 69 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.600 You know, in the first startup we led with new stack ventures was based 70 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.199 in D C and we never met the founders in person. It was over 71 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:25.920 zoom didn't exist. It was over skype and traditional phone calls. And when 72 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:29.160 the pandemic hit, all of a sudden the series a and series B co 73 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.800 investors, you know that would lead later rounds for our startups, became much 74 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:34.759 more active in the middle of the country. So I had a lot of 75 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:39.040 LPS that were calling me at the time saying, you know, is has 76 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.879 your edge been armed away? You know, you guys were sort of the 77 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.720 zoom video based. You'll invest in Atlanta or Denver, Salt Lake City. 78 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.959 Uh, is that going to go away? And I think in many ways 79 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:55.439 it's. It's actually been an accelerant because the series A and B folks no 80 00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:00.279 longer have to attend board meetings in person and now they can can act with 81 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.040 founders all over the country in a way that previously they couldn't or or just 82 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:09.680 wouldn't, and so it's it's been a great sort of amplifier to everything we're 83 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.000 doing. So are you saying on this series a and B side of things 84 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:18.040 it's been an amplifier in they're more comfortable as the companies progressed to that stage, 85 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.639 then it's almost an easier pitch for you to get those companies in front 86 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:28.360 of Series A and B investors. There was probably less than ten vcs that 87 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.600 I was very friendly with that would look at Midwest based deals, even very 88 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:35.560 strong deals. Like Mike Evans, is a good friend, were invested in 89 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:39.800 his recent company. He was the CO founder of Grub hub back in the 90 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:43.199 day. You know grub hub. Their series a was led by Bill Gurley 91 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.800 at benchmark there. But that is one of very, very few examples of 92 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.600 Chicago based startups that were funded by coastal investors. Um another one called belly 93 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:56.759 was funded by by Andreeson. But you can name, you know on one 94 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.079 hand or two hands the number of notable startups funded. Notable vcs on the 95 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:05.319 coast completely changed right our last series day round, I think I reached out 96 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:11.800 to Fort vcs on the coast and made forty two intros. So lots more 97 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.720 interest in the middle of the country. We had an investor on this show, 98 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:18.680 albeit this was right before covid happened. I think I interviewed him February 99 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:23.079 twenties, so I'd love to kind of back on and see what he what 100 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.800 his house right now. But he he had the line which I thought was 101 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.560 interesting, where if you want to start a technology company, it's fine to 102 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.480 start it in a secondary or tertiary market, maybe outside the big coast, 103 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.879 what have you. But when you think about scale and you think about growing 104 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.000 the company, you need to go where the talent is and that tends to 105 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.199 be, you know, like the bay area with like software engineers and New 106 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.040 York. Maybe you put Chicago. That makes but how do you think, 107 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.360 especially when it comes to you know, secondary in tertiary markets, when you 108 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:54.800 think about growing and scaling, you know, technology companies? How do you 109 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.279 think about placement? Obviously things have changed because of Covid, but this placement 110 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:03.879 now still mattered, or are you seeing as well that companies that really you 111 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.759 need to get good at being distributed, and that's kind of like the new 112 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.360 normal always. It's a good question. It's a tough one to answer, 113 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.519 but I can certainly give you, know, my two cents. We've got 114 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.680 forty portfolio companies now, so we've seen it quite a few times. It 115 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.680 seems like series B is kind of the turning point. So at that point 116 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:28.680 the company is sufficiently large in doing enough hiring that they need experience. So 117 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.480 there's a distinction between talent and experience. Right, talent is everywhere, but 118 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:39.120 experience is not. And if you need tech specific playbooks and experience, then 119 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:43.799 often you can go to the bay area and you can find more of that. 120 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.559 Right, if you're an SMB SAS company with a C V S in 121 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:52.559 the K to twenty range and you're running a product led growth model, you 122 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.039 can find people that have done that in more supply in the bay area than 123 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.240 in any other region. It's not really about talent, it's more about experience. 124 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.559 Um, but I've seen those hires go south more than they've gone north, 125 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:11.080 quite frankly, and often it's because sometimes you'll find somebody who has a 126 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.720 playbook or experience and they're very smart and they obviously have developed, you know, 127 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.759 a strong set of best practices around, let's say, a marketing technique 128 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:26.960 or a sales technique or or maybe a tech stack. But everything changes right. 129 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:30.960 Tech is one of the most rapidly evolving places. So if you find 130 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.759 somebody who has a mindset of always figuring out the right strategies right, you're 131 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.120 you're a consumer guy. This is especially relevant when it comes to consumer customer 132 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.080 acquisition. Right, whether it's S C M or s e O or or 133 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.559 now, you know, paid ads, with with advertising, or you're doing 134 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:52.440 email marketing campaigns or other creative things that the ground is constantly shifting underneath you. 135 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.600 If you make the mistake as a founder of hiring somebody who's got a 136 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.559 playbook that worked five years ago, whether it be on the development side or 137 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:03.080 on the sales and marketing side, that's different than finding somebody who has a 138 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.279 mindset of trying to figure out what's the newest, latest and greatest thing that 139 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.279 we can do or, you know, come up with their own tactics and 140 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.600 strategies, uh, that are gonna, you know, be innovative for the 141 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.279 entire space. Well, I think too. Like you, you touch on 142 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:24.000 a really good point about talent and about how you need you're obviously looking for 143 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.399 people that are pretty agile because and not just have like a set playbook per 144 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.679 se, especially in the worlds of you know, I know that you had 145 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.279 your example of digital marketing, but of course things change so rapidly. Of 146 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:37.480 Digital Marketing, UM, as you know, one place and you know, 147 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.879 like another topic when it comes to hiring that we talked on the show too, 148 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:45.679 is, you know, it might be great that a candidate is from, 149 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.639 you know, one of the big tech companies, you know, facebook, 150 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.799 Google, what have you. But what happens when they have a budget, 151 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:54.919 you know, much smaller that they're given a budget a lot smaller than 152 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.440 they do working the big tech companies? How will they, you know, 153 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.759 adjust? How will they survive? Um, that's sort and so I also 154 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.480 just think too, like on my hiring talent side, it can be also 155 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.080 tricky because on one hand you want someone that obviously has that experience right and 156 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.600 maybe knows how to do the job, but doing the job for a large 157 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.600 company is very different than doing it for a small company. Context is everything. 158 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.440 There are builders and there are optimizers, and that exists within startups. 159 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.120 It exists within venture capitals as well. If you want to build your own 160 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.600 firm, recognize less than twenty percent of your time is going to be investing. 161 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.840 Right. If you wanna join an early stage startup, recognize you're gonna 162 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.279 be wearing a million hats and you're gonna be innovating on a shoe string. 163 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.759 Right. So that goes to your point. is completely different than joining a 164 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:45.480 large established venture capital firm or a large established tech company, where you can 165 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.840 go and you can optimize around something very specific and and try and Um, 166 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.240 you know, move the needle in a much more focused way. That makes 167 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.720 a lot of sense. Also, like would love to kind of learn to. 168 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.080 Obviously, you started off, you know, as you said, Angel 169 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.600 Investing, than producing syndicates on an angelists. Why did you decide to go 170 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.879 the fund route? What was the reason there, instead of, for example, 171 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:09.320 you know, joining another firm, for example, which then maybe you 172 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.360 spend a lot more time on the deal flow side of things instead of, 173 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.600 you know, kind of relationship managing with with lps and what have you. 174 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.440 But like what was kind of like your mindset and how you wanted to progress 175 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.000 per se? I think it's like an evolution of pain points. I had 176 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.960 land Um Naprier on the show sometime ago. You should have him, he 177 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.080 is a hoot from Bill Group. But he talked about how product market fit 178 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:37.080 is constantly changing. It's not something that's fixed in time. So you find 179 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.200 product market fit in one capacity and then it changes because the customer sets change 180 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.840 and you know, needs evolve. You know, once you fill one set 181 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.519 of needs, a whole new set of pain points evolves, right, and 182 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:52.679 so the same thing happened with us. We fill the need from the standpoint 183 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.240 that we could now fund startups in more of a lead capacity. At the 184 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.840 time, you know, we could do six figure checks instead of my little 185 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.559 K or fifty k check with the syndicate. But then once we started cutting 186 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.000 checks on the syndicate, the pain points evolved. Right. The pain points 187 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.399 for me personally and for my firm is I couldn't hire help because I had 188 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:16.360 no management fees, whereas if I had a blind pool a committed funds, 189 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.960 all of a sudden there's a fee stream, you can put some services and 190 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.960 you can put some people around it and then you can do much more across 191 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.879 the firm. And then the pain points of the founders. Mike, so 192 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.480 you know when we would cut chets checks via syndicate. I'm talking to founders 193 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.440 and I'm saying, look, we'd love to invest in your round. I 194 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.600 think it's gonna be somewhere between a hundred fifty thousand and three thousand. I 195 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.440 don't know for sure, and it's gonna take US probably two to three weeks, 196 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.840 maybe four, to kind of launch this thing on Angel List, you 197 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.919 know, prep the materials. I might ask you to do a Webinar this 198 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.159 and that. Some founders are great about all that, but some are gonna 199 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.200 kind of look at you and say, wait a minute, you can't really 200 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.360 you can't give me a firm yes or no, and you can't me how 201 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.440 much it's gonna be and you can't tell me when I'm gonna get it. 202 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.960 You know, that's a little it's a little trickier. Right. So it's 203 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.240 not a knock on syndicates, it's it's a different type of funding vehicle. 204 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:15.159 But those are some pain points for the founders that are readily addressed with a 205 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.399 fund. Talk to me a little bit about how you're thinking about today's market. 206 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.600 Obviously it's pretty different to last year. But we've seen, you know, 207 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:28.639 valuations obviously in many categories come down bridge rounds, down rounds and really 208 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.879 kind of focusing a lot more on like capital efficiency in companies and, you 209 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:35.080 know, what's your burn, how much revenue you're making, and kind of 210 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:37.240 kind of balancing out those two aspects. Talk to me a little bit about 211 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:43.919 outside Silicon Valley, like how has valuations change, what you're seeing in the 212 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.720 market that you cover? And also, like, was there already kind of 213 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:52.080 an emphasis on capital efficiency with like companies that are outside so like a valley, 214 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.720 or has it really been like across markets, like there's been, you 215 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.519 know, quite a drassing valuation change? Boy, there's a lot in that 216 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.879 question to address. Yeah, well, you know, first things first, 217 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:07.279 we invest, as you've suggested, in a different profile of company than than 218 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:13.759 the coastal counterparts. Our valuations are are lower in general because these are what 219 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.639 we see as underpriced assets. Um, they don't have the bright shiny resumes, 220 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:20.519 but we think, you know, the talent, the mindset and the 221 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.600 motor is just as strong, if not stronger than than many of the counterparts 222 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.080 as far as the market goes. Mike, you know, I could cite 223 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.399 all the cliches. Best companies are built during recessions. You know be fearful 224 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.799 when other are greedy. Fortunes are made in the down markets and collected in 225 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:41.080 the up markets. Right now is that is an exceptional time to be a 226 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.879 VC. If you have a committed fund, you know, if you're going 227 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.720 out and trying to raise capital, a little more challenging. Uh. If 228 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.000 you have a committed fund and you're deploying capital, it's a wonderful time to 229 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.320 be investing. I was on a call with some institutional lps last week and 230 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.360 one of the more prominent lps said he believes this vintage is going to be 231 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.639 the best of the decade. Assets are under priced right now. Terms are 232 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.679 more favorable for vcs. It's a great time to end. You know, 233 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.679 most of the talent that's risk averse, that's founding companies, is gonna go 234 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.559 run to employment stability and a lot of the talent that is risk seeking is 235 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.320 gonna lean in. And then the support talent in the system, you know, 236 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.720 the people that will join startups. The pricing is going to be lower 237 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.799 and that talent is gonna be there's gonna be a higher supply. We've seen 238 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.200 the opposite right over the past probably three to four years. So there's never 239 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.679 been a better time to be a VC. And for us, when it 240 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.879 comes to our existing portfolio, you talked a bit about this, but our 241 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:45.159 existing portfolio is very strong. Right. They're built in a different way than 242 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.919 many coastal startups are built. When I talked to our our friends on the 243 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.639 coast, you know you do a lot of networking in this business, so 244 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:56.320 you talked to ten to fifteen vcs a week and, uh, everyone's writing 245 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:03.000 companies down right. There's panic is probably the appropriate word to use right now. 246 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.000 We kind of use polite euphemisms like triaging the portfolio and and things of 247 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.519 that nature, but there's a lot of narrative spin going on with vcs right 248 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:17.599 now. There's a lot of panic. People are writing down companies significantly because 249 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.920 what happens on the coast is when you've got a great idea of fantastic team, 250 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:26.359 fantastic resumes right and a killer pitch deck, you can in some cases 251 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.799 go out and raise at a hundred million dollar valuation seed right, which is 252 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.960 crazy. Right. That is what we call a hype round, which often 253 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.039 turns into a momentum momentum round, meaning other people pile in, and then 254 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:44.319 those are valuations that the startups need to grow into. Right they're not there 255 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:45.920 yet. It's gonna take some time for them to grow in. Now that 256 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:51.279 the markets collapsed, everyone's having to write those down in in some case recap 257 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.559 the companies. But that is the antithesis of what we do at new stack. 258 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.319 Right we're investing in outsiders. So these, the companies were investing in, 259 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.400 need to show more traction and progress to get, you know, a 260 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.400 comparably low valuation. And so none of our startups have to be written down. 261 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:10.039 I just wrote an uptake to our LPS. We don't have to write 262 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:15.039 down any of our startups. We are not triaging the portfolio. Every valuation 263 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.519 that they've raised. That has been earned, not gifted. So we're in 264 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.559 probably the strongest position we've ever been in as a firm. I know that 265 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.839 one sector, a category that's really popular right now is web three and would 266 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:33.480 love to kind of hear your thoughts, if you're investing in web three businesses, 267 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.599 what your general thesis is around Web three and if you're investing in it. 268 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:38.519 We're not investing in web three. Might not at the moment. You 269 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.799 know, web three just went through a massive hype cycle which turned. Now 270 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.720 might be a better time to be investing in web three because, you know, 271 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:51.599 prices have come down. I think Dan Primac just tweeted yesterday that block 272 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.680 five is in talks to sell for twenty million Um to f t X. 273 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.960 I mean, that's crazy, right, because block five has raised over a 274 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.279 billion in your capital, if you read everything online. I don't. I 275 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.960 don't think they'll sell for as low as twenty five, but orders and orders 276 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.839 of magnitude less than even what they've raised in venture capital. Forget where they're 277 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:11.960 priced at. So you know, web three has fallen on hard times, 278 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:15.720 which may make it a good candidate for investment. Right now, we are 279 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.359 still not investing in this space, Mike. Part of that is because of 280 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.039 sophistication. If you're gonna go after something brand new, whether it's a type 281 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:26.839 of technology or, you know, a new category, you really have to 282 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.920 develop some expertise around it. The second reason is, you know, the 283 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.240 killer APPs just really aren't there yet. A lot of web three is serving 284 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:40.559 the pain points of venture capitalists and I think that's why it's become this huge 285 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:44.720 space. I can talk more about that. But vcs are super infatuated and 286 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.920 enthralled with web three because it's serving more of their pain points. If you 287 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:55.319 look at consumers, general consumers out there, it typically is not addressing real 288 00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:00.440 pain points for consumers and that's why we've seen a dearth of killer Apple Atians. 289 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:04.400 I mean the one killer APP that I think is working and can work 290 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:11.119 well is store of value. I think you know Crypto as a currency can 291 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.319 be a much better store value than gold, for instance. Outside of that, 292 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.440 yes, there are some other applications on the fringes and there's exchanges and 293 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.599 there's some liquidity benefits, but a lot of the promises that web three is 294 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:29.839 making are not being delivered and customers aren't really asking for things to be addressed 295 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.400 that web three is promising. So for us it's not a category of interest 296 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.039 at this time. Will massive amounts of money be made in the segment, 297 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.279 Mike, yes. WILL MORE MONEY BE LOST? Oh Heck yes, there 298 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.799 is a lot of money to be lost in this segment, and so we'll 299 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.000 stick to what we know, stick to our knitting B two B SAS it 300 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:56.599 has comparable upside without the corresponding downside. So how do you make sure that, 301 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.480 because I know that right now you said you're not invest in web three, 302 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.119 but long term it seems like you're, you know, quite bullish on 303 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.799 on some of the applications within web three. How do you make sure, 304 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.880 when you're analyzing, you know, a particular category or a segment that hey, 305 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:11.160 like, this is the hype cycle, I'm not going to invest, 306 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.960 but at the same time you also don't want to miss the actual timing what 307 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.920 it actually makes sense to actually to invest. So how do you think about 308 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:23.640 timing when you're actually analyzing different categories you actually want to invest in? Well, 309 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.599 I think you know, everyone needs to decide as a VC, depending 310 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.960 on how mature you are as a firm or your fund structure, you need 311 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.279 to have a thesis. You need and it's more important what you're not doing 312 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.359 as a part of your thesis even than what you are doing. Right, 313 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.440 you run a podcast the consumer VC. Right. Are you gonna go interview 314 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.880 a bunch of enterprise, you know, deep tech founders? Probably not, 315 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.559 is my assumption, because you've got your own niche in your own angle and 316 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.880 what that allows you to do is become, at least from the interviews I've 317 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:04.000 heard, heard a very effective and sharp and informed interviewer in a set of 318 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.279 consumer related categories and just venture in general. Right. So you've got to 319 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.039 decide what you are and what you're not gonna do and uh, you've gotta 320 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:17.599 be okay with missing on some things that are gonna go well as long as 321 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.799 you're pretty sure that the categories you invest in are also going to be out 322 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:26.200 performers. So do we think we can deliver a ten x fund this Fund 323 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:32.920 without web three? That's why we're in business. We're not in business to 324 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.079 be an also rand. We're in business to be a top decile firm and 325 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.960 to be the best, you know, between the coasts. And Uh, 326 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.680 you know, we're convicted in that and we believe we can drive that without 327 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.359 chasing height. First of all, thanks for the kind word. That's certainly 328 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:53.440 certainly not true on on on my side of the podcast, but I know 329 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.880 that your bread and butter is kind of B two B SAS right. But 330 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:03.640 what in since it's obviously a a consumer show, what about consumer makes it 331 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:07.599 interesting to you? Like what maybe categories within technology or or even consumer brands? 332 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.200 What kind of has to go right in your mind when you're when you're 333 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.720 looking at a consumer company. That makes you want to make the bet. 334 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.880 You know, consumers is a tricky category. I'm sure a lot of people 335 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.599 have talked about this on the show. Um, you know, with with 336 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.240 B two B says, you're still dealing with people fundamentally, and people operate 337 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:33.400 on emotions and trust and things that are outside of just pragmatic logic. So 338 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.920 yes, in the B Two B Saas world you're always looking for either top 339 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:44.119 line or bottom line optimization. Right, can you expand revenue? Can you 340 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.839 reduce cost and expand margin? With consumers, that's where you begin. But 341 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.160 it's a longer sort of in Chris Dixon's words, probably a longer idea, 342 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:59.079 amazed unravel, because there's more to it than that. Um, you may 343 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:03.559 start with you till like solving a real problem for consumers, but you need 344 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.880 to deliver it in a way that captures their imagination. Right. It starts 345 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:12.359 firing these different dopamine and in different hormones in a way that you know they're 346 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:21.039 locked in and they're excited and they develop brand affiliation and affinity Um and all 347 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:26.160 these factors. And so in my mind it's the ultimate experiment in psychology it 348 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.799 can be a little scary sometimes because I think big tech companies don't really know 349 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:34.640 why consumers make all the decisions they do, but they do have the data 350 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:40.640 to substantiate what's happening Um and it's our jobs, you know, as being 351 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:47.400 early stage sort of assessors of this market, to try and get into consumers 352 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:52.039 heads, to try and reason and into it the way that they think and 353 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.519 then deploy our capital behind it Um and hopefully we can use some data to 354 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.480 substantiate that, you know, with a lot of testing and a lot of 355 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.279 iteration. So yes, I think everything starts out with utility and usefulness, 356 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.519 but consumer gets way more interesting because you get into all these higher level concepts 357 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:14.279 of psychology and and my wife happens to be a psychologist and so, you 358 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.039 know, she's been probably my biggest support building a business and also trying to 359 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:22.799 invest in in the right people in businesses. That's really interesting and whenever I've 360 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:27.799 spoken to other funds that are in you know, that certainly are in the 361 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.279 middle of the country, or even funds that are on the coast and investment 362 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.319 in the country, what they really like about investing in companies that are located 363 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:40.519 in especially like secondary and tertiary markets, is that it's probably a company that's 364 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:44.440 going to be for much more geared towards, you know, a lot of 365 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.920 different types of people, not just you know, coastal maybe like types per 366 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.960 se, but rather for the US so like, and so I'm always just 367 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.519 kind of kind of fascinated by by that part of it to just just create 368 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.680 geographically. I know you briefly touched on it with analyzing founders and, of 369 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.400 course, building trust, since you were one of the O G s remote 370 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:08.640 investing people that did it, you know, before covid. Any tips that 371 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.079 you've seen in order to obviously build trust with founders when you're not able to 372 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:18.119 meet them in person, if that's also part of how you invest as well? 373 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.480 Right, like you the the ideas maybe too. It's obviously in town. 374 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:23.440 Sure, maybe them in person, but what are things that that if 375 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:29.039 you learned from remote investing? Well, I don't want to escape your question, 376 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:33.200 but I think whether you're remote investing or investing in town, I think 377 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:37.160 you have a duty as a VC to be a friend and a support and 378 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.839 beyond call pretty much at any time. So, you know, I'll tell 379 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.039 my founders if I'm not in a meeting or with my son and you call, 380 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.880 you know I always pick up the phone and uh, you know, 381 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:55.039 we have an expectation of our founders. I mean they need to have extraordinary 382 00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:00.039 mindset and motor right. They have to have sort of very unique obsession and 383 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:04.240 commitment to what they're working on and have that motor, that high pace of 384 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.640 repetition, to get after it. And when we hold our founders to that 385 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:12.000 expectation, we need to hold ourselves to the same Um, which is to 386 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:17.000 say, you know when when somebody's trying to close around and get wires and 387 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:18.960 everything, you better be on the horn with them, you know, as 388 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.759 many times as it's necessary and with your fund administrator to get that freaking thing 389 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:27.000 done and get it in first, you know, before the other wires hit. 390 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.440 And when a founder needs something, you know you better be the first 391 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:36.119 callback they get, you know, with hopefully an answer or resource. I 392 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:41.720 think building trust comes with actions. Everyone in this industry has easy words. 393 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.279 I'm sure you've heard many on your show, because there's a lot of people 394 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:47.440 that can spend a yarn and talk Um, but a lot of people don't 395 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.400 have follow through. If you've heard what I've heard about a certain percentage of 396 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.759 my guests. You know, they don't necessarily act the same way in a 397 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:57.079 board meeting as they do on a podcast. And so, you know, 398 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:03.200 actions speak UH louder than words. And Uh, if you follow through with 399 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.839 incredible actions with these people that are just extraordinarily committed to what they're working on, 400 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.119 you become the person they're referring all their friends to. You become the 401 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:15.400 person they want to work with. You know, when they're interviewed on a 402 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.480 podcast and they're asked, you know, what do you think of investors? 403 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:23.240 You know, well, ship new stack is awesome, you know. I 404 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:27.160 mean that's what you want them to say. And Uh, and you can 405 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:33.079 achieve that very easily if you're sort of in a philosophical alignment with your founders, 406 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.400 which typically we are, because, you know, we we expect a 407 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.160 certain type of founder to be a fit in our portfolio and that's the way 408 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.640 that we kind of operate as well, and it builds trust rapidly. I 409 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:51.039 think if you're not in philosophical alignment, think about, you know, your 410 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:55.920 thesis. Maybe invest in consumer businesses based in l a that you know have 411 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.839 um strong digital marketing, customer acquisition or something of that nature. Right, 412 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.680 you can invest in great companies in that space, but philosophically, you can 413 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.119 invest in a bunch of founders that like maybe you just don't quite see eye 414 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:11.480 the eye on or at the end of every call you're not quite sure you 415 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.480 understood everything they said or exactly, you know, what they're doing next or 416 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.039 where they're going, or how are they going to build pipeline or you know, 417 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.599 there's there's something that's lost in communication. But when you have a great 418 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.039 philosophical fit with a founder, it's just, you know, it's like an 419 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:32.480 old friend. It's like you both know exactly who each other is from a 420 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.720 professional standpoint and you have an expectation of how they're going to operate. Yeah, 421 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:38.000 no, you you touched upon a good thread. I mean, of 422 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:42.359 course we talked about expectations. We talked about as well as about thesis alignment. 423 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.119 I think a subtle point that you brought up as well is can the 424 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.640 founder kind of keep things simple in terms of how they actually express what they 425 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:53.200 actually want to achieve and actually what, you know, what are the different 426 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.440 kind of stages that they see for the company? The next you know, 427 00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:59.759 what they want to achieve to be in six months or, you know, 428 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.559 two years or what have you. But can you say that in very simple 429 00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.799 terms where you and we don't leave a call and you're like Oh, like, 430 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:07.920 I don't really understand, like there's so much jargon in there that I 431 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.640 have no idea what we actually we're talking about, and can you kind of 432 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.680 express, you know, the problem you're solving and and also your solution in 433 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.000 quite simple terms that an investor can kind of wrap their head around it or 434 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.119 just really honestly, could anybody could could wrap their head around it. So 435 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.599 I think that's a that's a good point. And Mike, I mean you 436 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.720 take startup submissions right on your site and I know that you know you try 437 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.720 and connect with the right folks and maybe you're doing some of your own investing. 438 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.359 So I'd be curious to hear you know, what you see in these 439 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.680 founders and you know if you think philosophical alignment is important. Yeah, I 440 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.759 do. I certainly do think that the philosophical alignments appointment is certainly important. 441 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:51.519 I think really understanding like and picking through like what problem that that they're solving 442 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.680 and really trying to understand when I founder. So I don't understand, you 443 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:57.480 know, on my end, like is this really that big of a problem, 444 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.839 is it not? In trying to, you know, talk to customers 445 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.440 or even just see their communities that they've built, since it's all consumer online 446 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.799 typically, that then kind of shows to me that, or it can give 447 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.400 me a kind of a feel if this is like a real problem or not, 448 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:11.519 because I think that we talked about a lot on the show, but 449 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.119 I think the one the one part about consumer that I actually think we should 450 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.759 take more of like an enterprise sass approach per se, is that enterprise ass 451 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.160 is like, you know point blank, you're not the customer. It's an 452 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.240 enterprise that that's a customer. But in consumer, because we're all consumers, 453 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.319 it's easy to say like Oh, I wouldn't buy this, this is not 454 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:32.960 going to be successful, right, and we need to kind of take that 455 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.240 approach where it's like hey, like, I am not like the target demo 456 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:37.359 for you, and it's actually, in some ways, I think, better 457 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.319 because it actually allows you to be a lot more injective about the company if 458 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:42.480 you're not, rather than be subjected to be like, Oh, I love 459 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.079 this brand, I think it's great if it's for you, but he guess 460 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.400 what, like you might be one of the few people out there that it's 461 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:49.720 actually for and that actually marketing may not be big. So, like, 462 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:52.079 I think that actually one of the things that I've been kind of like, 463 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.960 um saying. It's just if we could take more of like an enterprise ass 464 00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.960 approach, where it's like accepting that, like, you are not the customer 465 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.240 and a lot of in many of the cases, like, I think that 466 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:05.359 would be great. I mean, it's a great insight, right, like 467 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.799 I think there's probably a benefit to doing some enterprise assassin investing if you're a 468 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.119 consumer investor, because it kind of helps you abstract your own experience from the 469 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:17.680 consumer market. Definitely. My final question to you, nick, is, 470 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.759 what's one book that's inspired you personally? In one book that's inspired you professionally? 471 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.200 Personal and professional? Kind of there's not much separation in my life. 472 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.880 Everything kind of is together, right, like I've I'm a founder more even 473 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:34.039 more so than I'm an investor, and what that means is it's kind of 474 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.440 all all consuming and has been for a long time. Unfortunately, my family 475 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.599 is very supportive and very helpful and and everything I do. Um, I 476 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.480 think a personal book that I really enjoyed. Recently I read uh can't hurt 477 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:52.799 me by David Goggins. I think it's a great testament to resilience and a 478 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:58.200 guy that was a self described loser becoming the world's toughest man, you know, 479 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:01.599 or toughest guy, how where you define that. It's just an incredible 480 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:07.319 example of what mindset can do for the human spirit. You know in life 481 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:10.880 and if you really commit, you can achieve just about anything. A professional 482 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:16.279 book that I thought was fantastic and very relevant for vcs is called. I 483 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:21.039 think, who is Michael Ovits? I hear that he's now a VC and 484 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.599 he's now investing in the space and investing in funds as well, but he 485 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:31.000 was the founder and main agents for the fantastic book and so many parallels and 486 00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:36.359 so many lessons. Uh, if you're an investor in operating in this space. 487 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:38.839 No, don't love those. Love those, those are those are too 488 00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:42.599 great. Really excited at us to the book list, Nick. This is 489 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:44.759 so much fun. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Mike. 490 00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:47.359 You're the best man, number one podcaster in the space. You deserve it. 491 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:51.440 No, hardly, Nick. I've been such a full ratchet fan this 492 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:52.680 is like such. This is a basic is awesome, Mike. Thanks so 493 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:54.640 much, man. I appreciate the time. And then you have it. 494 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.000 It was great chatting with Nick. I hope you all enjoyed it. If 495 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.680 you enjoyed this episode, I love it if you'd write a review on the 496 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.359 apple podcast. You're also welcome to follow me your host, Mike, on 497 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.599 twitter at Mike Gelb, and also follow for episode announcements at Consumer VC. 498 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:31.960 Thanks for listening, everyone. Oh, Oh, oh,