April 20, 2022

Nuno Gonçalves Pedro (Chamaeleon) - What consumer technology will make its way to the west, do companies create new markets, what’s after the iPhone?

Nuno Gonçalves Pedro (Chamaeleon) - What consumer technology will make its way to the west, do companies create new markets, what’s after the iPhone?

Thank you Ashish for introducing me to our guest today, Nuno Gonçalves Pedro, General Partner at Chameleon. Chameleon typically invests at the seed and series a level principally product led technology companies. Some of their portfolio includes Draftkings, Robinhood and Keepsafe. We discuss the evolution of eCommerce, if companies actually create new markets, and how he uses quant to make investment decisions. Without further ado, here’s Nuno.

Questions I ask Nuno:

  1. What was your attraction to technology?
  2. What led you into venture capital?
  3. When you look at consumer investing and the evolution of ecommerce in Asia, what technologies do you think are going to make its way to the west?
  4. How did Chamaeleon come together?
  5. Why has your focus been consumer? What makes you excited as a consumer investor?
    1. Where do you think some of the big opportunities are in consumer?
  6. Walk me through your due diligence process -
    1. How do you analyze teams?
    2. How do you use quant to help make decisions?
    3. What are the important insights and data points?
  7. How do you think about the next consumer platform? There’s lots of buzz around the metaverse, web3. How do you think about what’s coming next after the iPhone?
  8. What tends to be the reason why you pass on a consumer tech company?
  9. What’s one thing you would change about venture capital?
  10. What’s one book that inspired you professionally and one book that inspired you personally?
    1. Professionally - Post Capital Society - Drucker
    2. The How of Happiness - Sonia
    3. Modern Physics Ancient Faith
  11. What’s the best piece of advice that you’ve received?
  12. What’s one piece of advice that you have for founders?
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:17.039 Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael but 2 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.960 and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital and innovation in 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:25.480 both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoying this content, you could 4 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.440 subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer VC DOT sub stackcom, to get each 5 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:34.479 new episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your inbox. Thank you, 6 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.840 a Chish, for introducing me to our guest today, new no Pedro, 7 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:42.359 one of the CO founders of Chameleon. Chameleon is a venture capital fund that 8 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:47.439 typically invest at the seed in series a level, primarily focused on product led 9 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:52.280 technology companies. Some of their portfolio includes a draft kings, Robin Hood and 10 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:58.039 keep safe. We discuss the evolution of e commerce, if companies actually create 11 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:03.600 new markets and how he uses quant in order to make investment decisions. Without 12 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:12.200 further ADO, here's a new no, new know. Thank you so much 13 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.599 for joining me today. How are you? I'm well, yeah, Very 14 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:21.319 Sunny California, very warm California it is. I'M IN LA at. I 15 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:23.280 feel like the the weather has really picked up over the past few days. 16 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.879 Let all as well, and it's I see that side, especially this time 17 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.920 of year. Why Start for the very beginning. What was your initial attra 18 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.840 action or how did you get interested in technology? Way Back when? I 19 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.640 have consumed way too much media, so TV and movie, since I was 20 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.760 a kid. I used to read quite a bit. I still do read 21 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.319 quite a bit, but I certainly consumed a lot of TV shows movies and 22 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.640 I think the first memory I have a science fiction right and and certainly star 23 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.239 wars and and all of that stuff, and I was like this is fascinating, 24 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.239 there's so much cool stuff out there. So in some ways I think 25 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.159 that was my first attraction to technology and over time, as I looked more 26 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.480 and more into it. I've always been a little bit of a hybrid. 27 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.560 I'm left being right brain kind of guy. You know, maybe we'll get 28 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:10.639 into that later on, but there was something about, you know, technology 29 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:16.439 and creating something in software or in hardware. There was in general predictable, 30 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:20.879 not always predictable, in general predictive when relatively tangible, even in software, 31 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.919 and so I think over time it just got more and more excited about it. 32 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.960 I started playing games, I start coding myself, I became an engineer. 33 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.280 I have a master's and science compouter engineering. So it was sort of 34 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:31.919 a crescendo. I don't think there was a like a moment zero was like, 35 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.919 Oh my God, I need to be a technology but it was like 36 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.560 it was clearly an important facet of my life. What do you have a 37 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:40.840 technology? I know you've been in a number of roles, you've worn a 38 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.800 number of hats, but what land did you on? Venture capital and actually 39 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:50.400 like more so like the investing side of things. What do you love about 40 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:53.680 Ed your capital? That's really quite unique. I think it's the end of 41 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.080 something and maybe the beginning of something else. I've been in tech for a 42 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.199 long time, twenty five years. I'm actually not that old, but I 43 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:01.840 started I started were working full time through college, which was a bit messochistic, 44 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.400 as well as I started doing it. You know, I've done a 45 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:08.360 variety of different things. I've developed, I've been a product manager, engineering 46 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:13.479 manager, I was a growth operator, strategy, corporate development, product business 47 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:15.240 development. I had a bit of a sint with McKenzie as well, after 48 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.120 being their client, which is extremely odd. I was a senior expert in 49 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.159 and member of the Asia Pacific Technology Medium Telecom leadership team, and as part 50 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:28.960 of that I was working mostly with large corporations and you know it's difficult to 51 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.919 make you know, using server Gersner's words, to make elephants dance. And 52 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.680 I am very lucky, I'm very blessed. I've worked in genuine projects and 53 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.360 with genuine companies over my life, not just as an operator directly or as 54 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:43.960 a consultant, that we did feel impact, we did feel there was change 55 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.080 and shift. But the venture capital things started really with starting to work with 56 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:52.039 startups and and when in particular led by three Israeli brothers and during doing some 57 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:53.479 stuff around the area that I was in at that point in time, when 58 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:59.560 I was still at GSM Association, in between GSM Association and Mackenzie, I 59 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.520 helped them figure out their strategy and how they would go after carriers and how 60 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.840 they would do a bunch of stuff and then in the end I ended up 61 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:11.159 actually helping them exit right to and as that quoted company. And I was 62 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.240 hooked because the speed, the acceleration, the pace of startups is just so 63 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:19.519 different from large organizations. It's not about the fact that large organizations on have 64 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.839 impact or they don't do big things at scale, or even that they can 65 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:28.399 have some velocity, but the acceleration in startups was like something I was hooked 66 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.680 on at some point in time when I was at kings as like I need 67 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:32.360 to spend more time with these startups at mckinzie. It was difficult back in 68 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:34.439 the day. My kinsis changed quite a bit since then, but it was 69 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:38.160 difficult back in the day, and so I sort of put myself in that 70 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.399 position. I start spending a lot of time in the bay area, although 71 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.360 I was based in Asia, so in the San Francisco Bay area, took 72 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:47.240 a few advisoryport positions, worked with a few very early android plays and you 73 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.959 know, it's like there's something here and at a certain point in time I 74 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:51.800 was like, you know, how do I play in this market? Do 75 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.839 I become an entrepreneur myself? And I was like no, I'm too much 76 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.199 of a portfolio guy. Am I a banker? I'm not a banker. 77 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.600 Of then my favory bit of bank and stuff over the years, and I've 78 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.439 done corporate development by side as well. that. Somehow it just coalesced right. 79 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.720 It was a bunch of circumstances came together as part of an advisory board 80 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:09.839 rule the people that are the person that I was advising and up merging with 81 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.959 another organization. That person ended up, you know, reaching out to me 82 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.079 and said should we do something together? And a little bit by accident, 83 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.279 and I think it was really the genesis of the idea was really from from 84 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:21.160 this person was like, let's do a venture capital firm, a micro venture 85 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:25.360 capital firm, when the term was just coming out, and let's do something. 86 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.199 And so it was a little bit by accident. As I said, 87 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.600 it's the end of something in the beginning of something else. In some ways, 88 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.160 I feel being a venture capitalist uses all the skills that I've developed all 89 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:39.399 over these years. Right, so it uses the ability to do twenty analysis 90 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.360 as soon as you get in the room, five minutes in your sort of 91 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.040 getting the industry more less. My product management background brings me to understanding product 92 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:47.759 my ability to get people. I work with people most of my life, 93 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.480 although, you know, very early on I saw myself as a very big 94 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.160 introvert. I think today I would see myself as an extreme extrovert, extreme 95 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.160 introvert, so a real hardcore am be vert. So there's a lot of 96 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.839 things, I think in a lot of pieces that came to other the ability 97 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.120 to bridge world's to be very polished around, see suites of, you know, 98 00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:08.120 top companies in the world, ends of billions of dollars, and then 99 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.600 just wear a Henley shirt like I am wearing right now and meet with entrepreneurs 100 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:15.879 and be cool. Right. Then they're like you're a cool guy, right. 101 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:19.040 So so all of that, I think, came together in this in 102 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:23.680 this part of my career. Was it difficult, you know, I'd imagine 103 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.600 working mckinzie and also just advising or chatting with, as you say, like 104 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.480 like the billion dollar company CEO and these large corporations. Was it like a 105 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:35.800 tough skill set to then change gears into dual capitals, that you're working with 106 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:43.279 such early stage companies and you're chatting with such companies that don't have crazy budgets 107 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.480 and are really trying to grow? was that quite like a difficult part for 108 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.519 you to do? Or we're not so much? Not so much. I 109 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:51.639 had a couple friend of mine used to call me a paradox and then I 110 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.360 had another friend of mine used to call me the best actor that they've ever 111 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.120 met. I've never done any acting, by the way. So my philosophical 112 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:00.800 view is I'm very eclectic and I think in some ways venture capital used all 113 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.399 these different aspects. Right, I can be super megapolished, right, I 114 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.439 can be in front of someone and it's very helpful sometimes to start ups. 115 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:10.879 Right, you're in the front of trying to do a big bed deal and 116 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.240 you need a little bit of heelop, you need a little shepherding. It's 117 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.680 good to have sort of this person coming in and behaving like just like the 118 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.160 way they do. I remember I had a story meeting at a very well 119 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:24.720 known Japanese company, Very Large Jepanis Company, and I was with an entrepreneur 120 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:28.040 and we were meeting them and you know, I brought my cars, gave 121 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.360 him my cars with a two hands, gave the got the cars and the 122 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.839 entrepreneurs looking at music. What are you doing? It is like, this 123 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.759 is how you do it in Japan. And this guy thought I was just 124 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.079 a nice guy. Rights, is like, yeah, you're a cool guy, 125 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:41.839 and so in some ways it's not. It wasn't very difficult for me. 126 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.759 It uses both sides. Sometimes it's important to be I would say there 127 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:47.519 are skills that are brought from McKinsey that I use all the time, right, 128 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:53.439 being structured problem solving, you know, being clear in terms of analysis 129 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.240 and getting to the gist of it and being sharp in that analysis and the 130 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:59.600 inside of what is there and that I use every day, every single day. 131 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.439 So I wouldn't say that's like there's a problem with the skill set you 132 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.319 bring from there. It's actually extremely valuable and you have a lot of great 133 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.120 entrepreneurs that were x mckinsites and a lot of great vcs that are x mckinzike. 134 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.600 In some ways I think I just it. For me it's more natural 135 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:16.319 to being formal than formal, but because I had like six years or formality 136 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.240 with mckinzie in Asia, sort of I can do that with my eyes because 137 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.160 I can put the suit on and look just like anyone else and then I 138 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.120 can take it out and put my t shirts or Hoodie and everyone's Oh, 139 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.879 you're a cool guy. So it's it's for me it's honestly very, very 140 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:33.000 simple. It's I don't have multiple personality disorder. I just serve. That's 141 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.000 my environment. I like shifting from one side. Maybe I do like shifting 142 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.159 from one side to the other. I'm curious that you had a lot of 143 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.120 experience in Asia. Do you ever look at agent say you know what, 144 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.360 I can see this type of technology come over to the US and why would 145 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.480 wake its way the West versus some of the others which you don't think? 146 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.000 Maybe our is relevant to the West, or how do you have to think 147 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.320 of these like kind of cross border sharing of technology from a nation Perspectis? 148 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:01.519 Start with, first Prince Pulls Asia doesn't really exist. It's a call it 149 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.519 the western construct. I think Europe, certainly Western Europe, is is more 150 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.480 and more anolithic. You know, we Portuguese always think that the Germans are 151 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:11.240 very different, etcetera. With were more similar than, I think, all 152 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:15.240 the different countries in Asia. You can go to from China, Beijing, 153 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.320 north China, to Korea, which is literally next door, and you like 154 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.960 you're in the different universe. That's very different. People behave differently, etc. 155 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.200 I'd say just maybe simplifying a little bit. You know, there's China 156 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.440 and China is its own backyard. It is such a large market that it 157 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.320 commands its own place. I think for a long time there's this view this 158 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.559 is just copycatting, is just stealing the taxonomy that is worked in the West 159 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.840 and we're doing they're doing it at skilled for China. It for a certain 160 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.279 period of time. I think that was actually correct. There was quite a 161 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.840 lot of copycatting. I don't think it's true anymore. There's a lot of 162 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.720 productivation coming out of China. I'd say there's been a lot of operating model 163 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:54.919 innovation and in escape innovation coming from China for decades now, well over a 164 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.960 decade. You know, we look at some of the big players, the 165 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.679 way they do things there is just that it's a different ball game. E 166 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.840 commerce, payments, guys like Ali Baba, they've been writing the rules. 167 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.639 If anything, you see players like Camuson and others copying from them, Talbau 168 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:11.759 and their success, you know, Alli pay on the payment side, etc. 169 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.480 Right, you see tenson being the giant that they are and being very 170 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.279 alone to games before anyone thought games were going to be mass market and the 171 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.919 like. They were there very early and they were do a variety but things. 172 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:26.759 Probably one of the best corporate venture capital arms. I wouldn't call it 173 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:31.879 really corporate Fitch capitalar but tencenten and probably one of the best investors out of 174 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.559 any corporate investors out there in the market. So I think there's a lot 175 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.879 about scalability of the Chinese model that applied to China. Then the rest of 176 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:41.840 Asia as its own rules. I mean India. It's India, so it's 177 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:46.759 in a little bit similar like China. There's some complexes about India's probably less, 178 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.960 you know, infrastructure, rich in terms of development, like China, 179 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:56.360 a lot because of national institutional strategy, but a lot of private initiative as 180 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.080 well. So there's a lot of interesting things happening there. Are Southeast Asia 181 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.919 seems to be a little bit when we talk about Southeast Ages, we talk 182 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.279 about it like a little bit more monolithically, although again they're very different. 183 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:07.720 I mean the niche is a huge country, Singapore s tiny. So there's 184 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.960 a lot of things there. What can you use from at what you can 185 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:15.879 you bring back to us in Western markets? We can bring, honestly, 186 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.840 everything back. I think it just needs to be adapted. I mean gaming 187 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.440 culture. You could say, well, there's things that work in gaming in 188 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.159 Asia and Korea, Japan China that don't work well in Western markets. That's 189 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.159 probably true. So there's obviously user experiences, characters, things that maybe don't 190 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.360 resonate as much, but honestly there's a lot of stuff that does resonate. 191 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.840 And a second thing I would say is also in this happened in the good 192 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.200 old days of snapchat, this notion of Super Apps, which may be less 193 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:46.360 supplicable to Western markets where it seems like people want stuff more unbundled. So 194 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:48.519 I would say there's actually you could sort of go through things that maybe don't 195 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:52.559 work and don't resonate, the don't scale, but there's a lot of stuff 196 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.080 that resonates in skills. I think part of the difficulty is a lot of 197 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.360 these Asian markets that have been talking about are not naturally very good at what 198 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:05.279 I would call International Business Development, so the ability to strike partnerships sell internationally 199 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:07.799 for a variety of reasons. Culturally there it's just sort of not where they're 200 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.080 coming from and sort of in the US would take that for granted because somehow 201 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.360 people are born with a marketing and sales chip under brain and and so they 202 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.519 grow up selling right, they sell stuff all their lives that then they're like, 203 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:22.840 why are these, you know, wonderful companies in Asia not very good 204 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.559 at selling here? They will like they're not used to selling the way you 205 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.919 do right. You know, language barriers, cultural barriers, etc. Stuff. 206 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.720 So that is also a little bit of an Isishe but I think that, 207 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.000 you know, Asians coming and was coming very hard if we look five, 208 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.279 six years back terms of investments and trying to deploy things. I think 209 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.440 it will see more of that. Will see more of that translation of products 210 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.120 from Asia really tapping well into Western markets. In some ways there's leap frogging 211 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.200 and there's very new once sleep frogging. That's sometimes we fail to associate to 212 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:54.600 it came from China or it came from Asia. I'll give you to examples. 213 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:56.159 One is like a you know the father a very good friend of mine. 214 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.919 He doesn't use cash anymore in China. I mean I lived in China 215 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:03.559 for six years. Everyone use cash. I went back after for or five 216 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.039 years. I mean a seventy something year old never takes cash with him anymore. 217 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.799 It just has his phone, he has we chat, he has alle 218 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.120 pay as everything that he needs. Ad Doesn't need anything else. And he's 219 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.279 been going on for years now. So it's not a new thing. And 220 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.120 now in the US we're like, oh, finally it's coming because of covid 221 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.600 and whatever, people that want to touch and they want to Cavin. So 222 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.840 they're like it's been going in China for a while. So that's when example. 223 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.440 The second example, you know, video streaming, watching TV movies. 224 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.519 Obviously there's a lot of piracy. The early hunt in China when I went 225 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:33.919 there with the DVD's that you could buy, and I'm not going to details 226 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.320 if I ever bought any DVD I'm not going to say anything. But honestly, 227 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.399 you know, circuit two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, 228 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.720 I got my first Google TV set up box right which I think was done 229 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.879 by Logitech, and I connected it to the Internet. I put in from 230 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.759 my tv any ways. That I won't describe. You know, this was 231 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.039 the early days of tea and a couple of other streaming platforms in China, 232 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.279 but there was obviously some dark stuff as well going on. I started using 233 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.960 it and it was very clear to me this was the future of watching TV 234 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:07.080 and movies. The whole linear thing was in terms of mass market, mainstream 235 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.600 was dead and it was clear to me, as I said, around two 236 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.279 thousand nine or so, and it was in China right, it wasn't in 237 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.720 the US, and in the US I don't think that was the case back 238 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.799 then. So in some ways they've been showing us the way as well, 239 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.000 and sometimes it's not that. Then the product that wasn't in China becomes big 240 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.240 in the US, but the use case gets big in the US. And 241 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:26.120 if we see, you know, things like clubhouse and a lot of these 242 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.600 platforms were people getting to, you know, in two different in different rooms 243 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:35.080 and share and talk and there's a facilitator honestly started in China to him start 244 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.039 here. Right. So there's now a lot of actually reverse copycatting. The 245 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.120 people. I don't know if it's arrogance or if it's maybe lack of that 246 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.159 connection. People fail to admit there's a lot of copycatting. And now happened 247 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.200 the other way around. In terms of products, right, a lot of 248 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.799 people are copying features and products in the US that have been happening in China 249 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.799 four years, right, for example, or in other parts of Asian how 250 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.799 do you think? Where did your mind go when you think about opportunities here 251 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:01.360 in the United States and within consumer it could be things you've seen in other 252 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.679 countries and you think, because anology come over here, what just overall, 253 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:09.759 broadly, just defink appelling. Yeah, and I'll give you a little bit 254 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.799 of a laundrealist there's obviously a very over archie thoughts that I have around consumer 255 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.279 demographics and how they're changing. The first two are seemingly obvious, but apparently 256 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.360 not totally obvious. We have two huge shifts in demographics right now. One 257 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.080 is we have probably the first senior demographics, so to speak. You know, 258 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.799 six thousand and sixty five and above that have been dishally educated. They've 259 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.279 worked with digital tools most of their lives and that takes away a lot of 260 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.399 the attrition, a lot of the barrier to entry into technologies like, you 261 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.240 know, doing stuff online, doing that on your mobile phone, and that 262 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.799 changes how you address that demographic. So I feel there's a lot of really 263 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.720 interesting opportunities around that because, if you remember, there's always been this thing 264 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.240 about the seniors are always a complex demographic because they don't use technology themselves and 265 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.080 because there's sort of two buyers. In effect, there's one buyer and one 266 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:58.919 user. There's the buyer, which might be one of their kids, right, 267 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:00.360 and then there's the user, which is the father or the mother, 268 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.039 right. And I think we're going to start seeing less of that. And 269 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.960 since we start seeing less of that, since the buyer and the user start 270 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.200 being the same person, everything shifts everything changes, the use cases change and 271 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:17.679 honestly, there's so few great things for certain aspects of the life of a 272 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.919 senior person that, to be honest, I can't see how that doesn't get 273 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:23.879 untapped. Right, it's not just support systems and home care and all that 274 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.159 stuff, right, it's more than that, right, social networks and, 275 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.679 you know, it's interactivity and it's, you know, gaming as well. 276 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.480 It's all of the stuff. I think we'll will shift and change. Then 277 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.480 the other one that everyone talks about is obviously gens ars. Very different generation 278 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:38.679 from millennials, you know, we can go on and on around, but 279 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.200 clearly more authentic in how they look at life. You know, Clubo. 280 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.159 The notion of purpose is more embedded there. Maybe it's an issue of fear, 281 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.080 maybe it's an issue fear as and we're all going to die, you 282 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.320 know, with climate change and all that, but there's definitely a notion that 283 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.759 is coming with a generation very, very different from millennials. I'm not saying 284 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.360 better or worse, but I definitely believe that the use cases, that the 285 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.759 taxonomy of what's going to lead in terms of services for that generation, social 286 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:08.079 networks, messaging tools, you know how they do stuff, you know, 287 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.039 in terms of productivity that they bring into their own jobs, you know, 288 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.319 bring your own service, as I used to call it. It's going to 289 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:17.160 be very different and that, I think, were it's in itself a sea 290 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.880 of opportunities. That is pretty amazing. Tick talk is sort of taken over 291 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.680 the world, in particular because of Jens years late millennials. But I think 292 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.319 there's more to come. There's more to come and it's exciting because nobody can 293 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.680 immediately figure it out. So at the top, and I would say those 294 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.599 are the two key the bographic ships we're going to we're seeing. But then 295 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.119 if you go below and things that excite me a lot, like ECOMMERCE, 296 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:38.759 we've been talking about, you know, hourly deliveries, and now in some 297 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:44.079 cities we started starting to see that. You Know Capullar, you know quick 298 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.839 commerce. Q commerce is sort of something that is coming actually a lot from 299 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.039 India and from China, which, if you think about it, are densely 300 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:55.200 populated in this big cities, and so therefore the models work really well early 301 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:56.279 days. In the US. I don't think it's nail yet. I think 302 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.440 the delivery models in the US are all sort of in flu right now. 303 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:02.880 I mean, if you ask me, is Amazon going to be used player 304 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:03.920 of the future? For sure, but are there are going to be other 305 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.720 players that mightymerrs, that might have a chance, food tag, food commerce, 306 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.319 all of that. I think there's a lot of innovation coming around that 307 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.400 excites me a lot. SMART home. So the way I think about it 308 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:17.880 is I think the home is going to be fundamentally shifted and change. Mobility 309 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:19.319 is going to continue being changed, and you know, not just the self 310 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.039 driving car use cases and all that stuff, but there's a fundamental shift around 311 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.960 how you move around and why you move around. Covid is also precipitated that 312 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.200 in some ways. And then the workplace, for sure, is going to 313 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:32.680 change, and we know that right and many people think it's going to be 314 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:34.279 remote. The world's going to be remote, everyone's going to work from home. 315 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.559 I'm pretty sure you know that's not going to be the case. I 316 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.960 bet more on a hybrid model where they're still office, they're still work functions, 317 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.799 they're still getting together, and then there's Home Office and that again shifts 318 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.480 everything. So I like to look at it a lot from these perspectives, 319 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.400 bottom up and top down, and top down I go through demographics, I 320 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.680 go through markets, I go through places, locations, and then I try 321 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.440 to understand what are the latent demand use cases. I use I use it's 322 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.880 from latent demand use case that are out being well served or things that could 323 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.640 actually be untapped, and then we do a lot of thinking bottom up. 324 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.960 We do a lot of thinking bottom up, looking at specific demographics, specific 325 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:15.640 subdemographics, specific segments, in figuring out with in products, if that those 326 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.799 products address them well. Right. So, so it's a little bit of 327 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:21.680 that mix. It's a mix of you know, what Excel would call the 328 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:23.279 prepared mind, market analysis, et Cetera, in the good old days. 329 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.599 You know, benchmark talks about very bottom up thinking complex systems. We're probably 330 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.839 closer to the bottom up route of the world and the benchmark model, so 331 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.519 to speak, as a VIGIA venture cantual firm. But at the end we 332 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.559 think both ways all the time, top down, bottom up all the time. 333 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:40.400 What are the maybe you cases is we haven't talked as much of the 334 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:45.680 show about. As you say, like seniors are artdly educated and are now 335 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.200 much more and are able to, you know, use your phones or just 336 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.519 use technology in a lot better way. As investor is the type of thing 337 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.119 where you think about services and you think, okay, what is maybe like 338 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.359 a ddacy online model look like that particular service, or what kind of get 339 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.160 you excited? Maybe it could be like a company you saw recently, or 340 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.359 just as your kind of thinking about opportunities. They get too excited when it 341 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.440 comes to this massive kind of statement that seniors are are digitally educated. The 342 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.440 home environment for seniors is very different and in some cases, if you have 343 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.519 chronic illness, for some reason your significant others passed away, your lonely, 344 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.079 you're by yourself. So there's a lot of dynamics around your interactions that are 345 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.599 quite different within the home and obviously there's the logic of if you fall, 346 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.440 should you have a device or your phone? All those use kisses, I 347 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:30.839 think, are well understood and there's a lot of companies out they're trying to 348 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.279 address that. But it's sort of going beyond that ass entertainment for it then, 349 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.400 right, you know what serf of entertainments would like to I would do? 350 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.519 I communicate with my family, right, you know, we see seniors 351 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.759 being, for example, more voice called prepense than you know, other demographics, 352 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.119 for sure. Right. So, but you know the voice call demographics. 353 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:49.839 Maybe our good for video as well. Right then, we've sort of 354 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:52.680 threw video away many years ago, many moons ago. It's like video want 355 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.319 to unless it's professional. People don't like to do it all the time and 356 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.519 maybe actually there are tools out there that should be done for them. Gaming 357 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.799 entertained and you know, there's this notion that gaming is just for people my 358 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.960 generation and below or just for young people. It's not true. You know, 359 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.720 a significant part of gamers now it's truly a mainstream phenomenon and you know, 360 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.680 there are elements. I wouldn't say that we need necessarily new gaming companies 361 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.839 to do games for seniors. Maybe there is a play around that at some 362 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.559 point in time in terms of game design again, format, etc. But 363 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.839 more interesting than that, there's definitely a lot of tooling around social dynamics. 364 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.720 I'm not going to use the example my mother because she's not particularly takes savvy, 365 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.759 but let's assume an ipothetical mother that was digitally and technically savvy. She 366 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.440 would have difficulty interacting and going to read it to figure out what to do 367 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.160 in our game right. She would have difficulty in figuring out this chord right 368 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.319 and how to interact with our gamers. So you know, are there possibilities 369 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.599 around these these types of dimensions that are that are very different. So that's 370 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.960 how you look at it. In all honestly, I think in seniors were 371 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:56.240 we're very thoughtful on the top down, but we also always look at the 372 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.039 opportunities because there might be something that just toldly disrupts the market. And our 373 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.000 review of the world is in demographics that are rapid changes, where it's very 374 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.680 unclear exactly where they're going to end up. You know, you can do 375 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:08.480 the top down work all day long in the markets, canny all day long, 376 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.319 and the latent, you know the the latent, the man use cases 377 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.880 that are talked about earlier. But at some point you just need to look 378 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.160 at a lot of companies and be like, okay, I don't think this 379 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:21.319 is going to be interesting and and so that volume is also important, high 380 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.160 quality companies, but at volume that you can see in the specific here to 381 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.799 to make up your mind, to see what's probably next out there. I 382 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.880 mean to give you a very stupid example. Direct consumer is obvious that needs 383 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.359 to be shifted. I mean the DDC. One point on model, you 384 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.519 know has shown us that just marketing innovation, Seo, all these things is 385 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.519 not enough. There needs to be product innovation. And as we look at 386 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.640 product innovation, we also start looking at other types of innovation and interaction. 387 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.400 Right. So, for again, for seniors, making it really, really 388 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.359 simple to interact with the service, figure out how to do, for example, 389 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.720 acclaim or send something back or all of that. I mean, honestly, 390 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.200 ecommerce in many senior segments it hasn't been started at all. Right, 391 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.880 it's still in its infancy because it's complex, because I want to put my 392 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.519 credit card on that website and how does that work? And then if I 393 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.160 get it and I don't like it, what do I do? And you 394 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.799 know, we take it forget because we can go and send emails to the 395 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:11.559 customer service, got on calls for a long time, do whatever, and 396 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.640 we started out right. It's probably ready for the picking. We probably have 397 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.839 already all the tools that we need to make these experiences really good. And 398 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.400 maybe it's going to be done by existing players that are doing direct consumer ECOMMERCE, 399 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.559 but maybe not, maybe that's not the angle right. Maybe there are 400 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.319 asking us out there and a bunch of opportunities that will be driven by other 401 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:30.759 players in the mark. I'll give you a supid example. Right, we 402 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.359 take for granted that we want more and more thermal communication. Right, you 403 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.759 know, snapchat, all these things that have evolved. Now we would we 404 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.680 don't want to actually be able to see things that we said or someone sent 405 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.519 to us for a long period of time. It's very firm or whatever, 406 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.160 if you believe that the world in some ways, you know email is still 407 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.880 has its place in the world, that it's sort of a old technology, 408 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.000 but there's other messaging technologies that are much better. The issue persistency of information 409 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.880 is very important for seniors, right. It's like, where can I find 410 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.640 I think you send me to they and I mean I'm getting discussion for my 411 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:03.599 mom all the Times. Like, you know, you send me this inttle 412 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.279 bit. Where can I find it? Again, it's like, you know, 413 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.759 and and, and thank God she's not switching phones at the past that 414 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.440 I'd switch frones, because otherwise we would have a real problem. Right. 415 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.079 But persistency of from information, I do manage the PERCINC see of that information 416 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.119 in a communication to maybe again, the current communication to providers, the whatsapps 417 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.000 at such with the world can address that. Maybe they can't. Maybe it 418 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:25.960 needs to be something totally different. And so again there's use cases that you're 419 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.240 like, oh, but but that's been sort on the problem in the past. 420 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.160 Yeah, cool, it was sort of in the past, but because 421 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:33.799 we evolved in terms of generations, the current mainstream offerings in terms of features 422 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.720 have taken it away. It's not a given anymore. And so how do 423 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.720 you address that, for example, is pretty interesting. How do you think 424 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.839 about that as the investor of overall? Is it kind of like a race 425 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.960 to the bottom with price and just thinking that, oh, like, like 426 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.039 the Tam of course, is massive, so it's okay, even the how 427 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.559 do you think about that space overall? We're an early stage investor where in 428 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:59.000 early stage we see but we have we've all been entrepreneurs in the partnership. 429 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:00.599 We've all been entrepreneurs, we've all been opera is its scale. We've done 430 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.039 really large scale ups and we've all been, you know, investors for a 431 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:08.440 long time, and so we've learned the hard way that you can't just disconnect 432 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.079 your sort of skeptical mind into it. And so the first thing we actually 433 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.000 think is actually something that comes much later on, which is unit economics. 434 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.680 And we're like how could this work? Right, and the normally early stage 435 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.160 guys we don't think too much about that, but then this case it's like, 436 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:23.519 well, a second can we look at the large guys and figure out 437 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.039 if they can ever hit unit to economics that are positive on this and at 438 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.960 what scale they need to hit it? So I think the skeptic in me, 439 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.119 and just to give a very short answer, because I could sort of 440 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.039 a ramble on this for a couple of hours. It's a it's a passion 441 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.359 of mine. The first sort of the skeptical one, says there's no way 442 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.200 in hell that the small guy is going to win this. Right, maybe 443 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.519 a couple of small guys are going to be bought out, but then the 444 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.920 Amazons of the world just win it because it's an extension of capularity for them 445 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:52.079 and they have the ability to make the United Economics work at scale with infrastructure. 446 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.359 If you look at what Ali Baba did in China with them and all 447 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.319 their stores for last mile delivery, you know these corner shops, which they're 448 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.839 super smart. They use these corner shops not just for corner shops but also 449 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.039 for distribution. Right. That's like nailing it. Right. And again Ali 450 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.480 Baba did it right. It wasn't an INCOMBA and it wasn't a startup that 451 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:11.960 came from out of nowhere. And so there's one part of me that says 452 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.599 that says, you know, it's then, in my analogy, a future 453 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:15.720 rather than a business, right, and if it's, if he should gets 454 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.920 bought by a big business. I do think there is something interesting. And 455 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.440 how you rethink local delivery? Are you re think in particularly the one hour 456 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.440 delivery or less right? But again it's horses for courses. It's like, 457 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:32.799 do I always need one hour delivery? I'm not sure you do and I'm 458 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.839 pretty sure you don't. And so you know, what is it useful for? 459 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.279 And in some ways I think there's obvious use cases. You need something, 460 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.920 last minute emergence, you preparing a lunch and dinner, you have a 461 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.680 party, you missing something, you know you're sick. I mean there's all 462 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.680 these use cases that we can come up pretty quickly. But there might be 463 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.279 something else to it and I think that's the part we're still missing in that 464 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.480 space. I haven't met the start up that come come to me is like, 465 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.920 okay, there's all of that stuff cool, but this is a really 466 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.400 big business, not because of all of that stuff, but because of this, 467 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.000 because of these use cases that you guys haven't seen yet, right, 468 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.759 and that's the future, right, that's what's going to happen next. I 469 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.960 haven't seen that yet. So again, you know, the optimist in me 470 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.720 says maybe I'll find that at some point. It's like, you know, 471 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:17.400 looking for Cinderella or still looking, but we will find it. For Cinderella, 472 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.559 looking for the for the prince in the other way. But in some 473 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.319 ways I think we're missing, missing that piece. Right. What makes this 474 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:26.039 work? Is it? Is it a problem that really needs to be solved? 475 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.160 And I don't see a lot of people questioning get. Everyone's like of 476 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:33.200 course, because we've gone down for months of delivery time, two weeks, 477 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.440 to two days and to one day. So obviously next step is one hour. 478 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.880 I'm like, okay, but when I was a different problem right all 479 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.160 together, logistically. So do we really need it and what would it be 480 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.359 for? Right, for example, I haven't seen this is shocking. I'm 481 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.039 sure they're. There are players doing this right now in the market. I'm 482 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.359 sure after this podcast I'm going to get a message on Linkedin from one of 483 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.480 them, because they're always like, oh, you two better this and we're 484 00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.319 doing it. Like I haven't seen a guy who's doing quick commerce. It's 485 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.440 just for produced for example, or quick commerce it just for fresh meat or 486 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.319 protein or whatever's this for that? Like I this is what we are nailing 487 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.480 right. Yeah, and this is how we expand our use cases. And 488 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:11.599 it's interesting to me because they're like, Oh, I'm giving you all these 489 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.079 things, you know, your kid kats and whatever, like a kid Kad 490 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.519 whatever. I can go to the supermarket. It's next door, right. 491 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:19.759 So it's like what else can you give me? We'll see. So the 492 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.480 Jew is definitely still out on quick commerce. I'm we spend a lot of 493 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.799 time on it. I'm not sure if we'll make a lot of investments in 494 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.559 the space. The key concern is really unit economics and how it's skills. 495 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.079 Yeah, talk to me a little bit bout chameleon. How did Chameleon come 496 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:36.119 together? So Chameleon is my new VC firm and my third fund, and 497 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:40.640 it really coalesces or came together around three people that just wanted to work together. 498 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.200 Actually, it's more than three now, but it started with three and 499 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.960 me Dr Some EU and and and Alex Sentos in Europe, and the three 500 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.359 of us have known each other for a long time. So you and I've 501 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.839 known each other for fourteen years now. We've been investing together for four years. 502 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.319 Alex and I have known each other for six years. We've been invested 503 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.759 yet for five, five and a half years, and so it's just a 504 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.160 bunch of people that, to be honest, in our own right, we 505 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.279 could probably do a single gp form ourselves around the table, could just do 506 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.200 our own funds, but we just wanted to do together. And the reason 507 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.039 why, I think we wanted to do it together is one a lot of 508 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:18.119 trust in respecting each other at all levels, intellectual, you know, emotional. 509 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:19.640 We actually have. The first thing we wrote together as a partnership was 510 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.960 our value system, which is in our website at Chameleon, that BC. 511 00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:26.920 It's chameleon with a in the middle, just to be clear. Chameleon, 512 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.319 that VC and and it was the first time, the first thing we actually 513 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:33.559 wrote, I mean before we even started fundraising. Honestly, like, this 514 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.359 is our value system and and we aligned by that. And the second part 515 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:40.160 why we really wanted to work together is all very different. I mean we 516 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.480 just, I mean, as I mentioned, I'm in hardcore em be vert, 517 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.440 extrovert, introvert. You know, one of my partners is very introvert. 518 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.880 The other partners were called marginally extrovert. We bring very different skill sets 519 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.960 the table, experiences as a table. We get excited about different things and 520 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.240 I think that's what makes for a great partnership and venture capital. It's a 521 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:03.160 partnership that's a extremely diverse, right, extremely IQ, at least there's a 522 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.319 couple of people on the team that are extremely ie Q, right, but 523 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.119 extremely diverse, but where there's a place where we all come together, right, 524 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.799 where we all align, where we all trust each other, and that 525 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:17.359 place is our values, the values we share, and that's if you think 526 00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.160 about, if you talked to you know, partnerships that have dissolved in venture 527 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.960 capital, a lot of these partnerships that have dissolved in venture capital were dissolved 528 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.640 because of that right. There were dissolved because of, you know, ego 529 00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.440 started getting in the way, there were problems, there are things that didn't 530 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.799 happen at scale and, you know, there wasn't that much alignment around value 531 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.759 system. Probably they did think in the first place that they would have and 532 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.160 they didn't indiend, and also mean they might have dissolved because they might have 533 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.880 no it are very long. Yeah, right, the fact that you three 534 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.759 have had none each other for a long time and also really, I'm dissected 535 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:51.799 in terms of what are your diversity in terms of introvert extrovert, a kind 536 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.039 of what you being a table there. I think it's that's obviously really important 537 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.559 and we talked a lot about the compilary skills for founders and cope batters, 538 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.799 but it's also the same is true with these funds. It's worse. In 539 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.440 a start up you have a CEO normally. I mean there's some cases where 540 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.920 people go with Coco type structures, but you normally have a CEO and a 541 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.279 CEO is the person that will fight, makefile and calls. In most venture 542 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.400 capital firms there's a partnership and calls are distributed and in some cases you don't 543 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:17.920 need to have a unanimity to make those calls. And and so I always 544 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:22.039 say this is actually even worse. In some ways it's like a marriage where 545 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.200 we see each other all the time, we direct all the time and make 546 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.039 decisions together all the time on the stupidest things, right and this is we'd 547 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.640 never scale at the scale of a start up. So it's not like we 548 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.200 magically will have stylens of a hundred people that were managing down the road. 549 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.720 We won't rite we you know we're going to be thirteen people and that's already 550 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.599 really large vac firm by Silicon Valley. Turns like we're part of the five 551 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.400 percent that has more than ten percent, that that has ten or more people. 552 00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.920 So again, honestly, it's very tough. I would like to put 553 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.240 the plug in of the other part of why we did chameleon the way we 554 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:52.279 did it. There's two really distinctive aspects of what we do at Chameleon. 555 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.559 One is obviously firms of advisors, scouts, all the stuff, and they 556 00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:00.960 have different programs. We were like, this is too complicated. We have 557 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.559 one program and it's called Ashtech can and we bring everyone underneath it and it 558 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.799 might be that they're going to help our portfolio companies, it might be that 559 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:09.240 they help us, it might be that actually help our lps in whatever capacity 560 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.599 right. Scouts, operators, advisors, whatever their askteck in right and they're 561 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.920 all under this umbrella. And you know it's been we haven't launched it officially 562 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.799 yet, but it's been a wonderful experience to put that together from from our 563 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:23.640 experiences in the past having worked all over the world. The second piece, 564 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:29.240 which is probably even more uncommon in early stage for sure, and I think 565 00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:32.599 the overall venture capital, is we venture capital investors, almost all of us 566 00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:37.200 invest in tech, but we don't use any tech since like so we make 567 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.559 money out of investing in tech companies that go and sell to other businesses, 568 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.480 to people and do stuff and whatever, and then we don't use it. 569 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:45.680 As I cool. And now we start seeing some people who have to their 570 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:50.880 text tag, they have their affinity for crm and they're doing some stuff around 571 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.319 desk, research, whatever. We actually have a quantum tech team that's larger 572 00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.799 than our dealty. We develop our own engines and house for dealsourcing, due 573 00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:00.960 diligence, portfolio management. We think through these things at length, right and 574 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.119 there has to be this notion that it has to be deeply embedded in everything 575 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.519 we do as a deal team. And so you know, I'm one of 576 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.400 the product managers on this. I'm one of the people that interaction more directly 577 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.839 with the technology team. You have to have this interaction all the times, 578 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.960 like what, what do you features? Do you need? When I meet 579 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.000 the Tech Team I always have a new requirements and stuff. We're always discussing 580 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.839 and negotiating on timeline. So I'm like, I'm back to buy good old 581 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.559 days of product management. It's that type of obsession that you need to have 582 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:27.480 to make it work, because it needs to be deeply embedded in your processes 583 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.480 as a venture capital front and we set out to do this not because we 584 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:32.359 want to be disruptors, not because we think other VC firms are all crap. 585 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.960 It's not true. There are great VC firms out there, but because 586 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:37.279 we think this is needs to be done. This is the only way to 587 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.480 scale the satisfied class properly. This is the only way to do this acid 588 00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.880 class in a way that is not only more fact based and better, but 589 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.119 it actually provides better and more predictable returns, which is historically what's been wrong 590 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.680 with this acid class. And so in some ways we believe in people. 591 00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:58.480 Ashtech can is approve of that. We believe power of making that final call 592 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.559 on the person we were working with in the entferner. But there's this lack 593 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.519 of technology and quantitative assessment and data. That is sorely missed, I think, 594 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.280 in the early stage side and we're addressing out with community. No, 595 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.880 I love that and I would also love to know how does the quantum tech 596 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.519 team collaborate with the deal team, because I'd imagine that the reason why the 597 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.239 VC firms may not have, you know, quantum tech side is because, 598 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.039 you know, they're just is it that much data at the very early tages 599 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.800 on companies and what have you? Is the quantum tech is that looking more 600 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.440 so at ad top down analysis, at at industries and kind of like the 601 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:38.000 Macro Lens? What's kind of like the relationship between the content tech and and 602 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:42.679 the dealty? So I I want divulge a lot right that. Want to 603 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.760 open the Kimono fully, because there's a lot of stuff here that's it's not 604 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.199 just confidential, proprietary, but it's more than that. It's nuanced, right. 605 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.960 It's like I might say something that some people interpret Oh, that's pretty 606 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.000 simple to do, and I'm like, we spent one month doing that, 607 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.800 right, so it's not that simple. Okay, so let me give you 608 00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.880 an example. We have several criteria sets. Let's say we have a criteria 609 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.639 set that is linked to talent, right. We're looking for pointers and signals 610 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:09.039 that show if the talent on that company, right, is great or not, 611 00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:12.519 and we want to score it. Okay. And so if we want 612 00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:14.280 to score it, there's a bunch of stuff we can go out to, 613 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.599 right, I mean we can have access to different data sources, you know, 614 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.960 linkedin. There could be some payday to sources out there telling me not 615 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.119 be a great example for that. We go into Angel List, were going 616 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:25.760 to classify as, we look into dd we look at a bunch of other 617 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:30.119 data sources. We scrape information from the Internet, we get all of this 618 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:31.280 certain version and we try and make sense of it. We try and like, 619 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.719 okay, this is noise information, I try, I want to make 620 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.880 sense of it, right. And so when we make sense of all of 621 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.159 it, we then basically transform it into something that's actionable and that is, 622 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.320 you know, uniquely position for us to have a score that links to it. 623 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:46.239 Then why, as you start having a lot of data points, you 624 00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.800 can see what does the ninety percent, I'll, look like for that vertical. 625 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.760 They are these guys well above that percentall or not tried, and so 626 00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.320 think of this as one criteria set, but then we have multiple criteria sets, 627 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.280 not just talent, and then we have an overall score and then we 628 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:04.159 have a bunch of other stuff and out of that we basically generate, you 629 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:07.199 know, something that is actionable. And so, for example, for deal 630 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.800 sourcing, we'd be able to generate an outbound list for specific verticals where I, 631 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.760 as a deal team member, can pick up on that outbound and then 632 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:16.559 reach out to that to that company and say, okay, these guys are 633 00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:20.719 interesting because there scores high from our engine and it wasn't on my radar. 634 00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.559 And it's almost magical because once you do it really well, you might be 635 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.199 talking to companies. Just to give one example, you might be talking to 636 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.239 companies that are not raising yet but might be thinking of raising on two or 637 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.480 three months, and two or three months time advantage on deal flow is the 638 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.719 avantage between getting a great valuation or not getting pulled into a bidding war or 639 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.039 party round or not etc. So these are just some of the elements we 640 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.599 do. We do a bunch of other stuff. We workflow toomations. We 641 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.920 do, you know, a lot of stuff. I reached out to it. 642 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.719 I don't know the other side's like. The first it replied to me 643 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.760 is like that's the first, you know, venture capital firm that you know 644 00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.880 I've talked to that reached out to me saying you popped up in our analytics. 645 00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:00.840 And okay, addressing the second part of your question very, very quickly, 646 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.719 it's like it's clear that in early stage that they is noisier, the 647 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:07.360 data is less complete and the data in many cases is scrappy, but there 648 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.960 is still data. That's the part. You know. It's just more difficult. 649 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.920 It's more difficult to extracted, it's more difficult to transform it, it's 650 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.519 more difficult to make it actionable and make it into a signal. That's that's 651 00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.639 the part that's more difficult. You know, I really be huge hearing because 652 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:27.199 my initial reception was that it's thinking about the efful analytics of the company, 653 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.400 which that also may be true, but I think that what I appreciate you 654 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:32.119 because you talk about so much of the show about how the early tages you're 655 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.239 investing in the team, because it really that's all you got in a lot 656 00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:39.119 of ways, and so you're actually using data in this quantum of heart of 657 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:44.800 your fund to actually analyze the actual teams itself in terms of what actually could 658 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.840 stay it out for you, which think is amazing. And it's not just 659 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.000 teams, right. I mean think of it as everything, markets and product 660 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:52.760 market fit, all sorts of thing. It's not just teams. Team is 661 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:55.960 an example that others also do. And again, it's not just for deal 662 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.800 sourcing. We also do this for due diligence with primary data, because you 663 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.440 then get primary data from from the sturubs you talked to, right, you 664 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.599 get their own data portfolio management after your invest so this is actually much broader 665 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.000 than just reaching out of people on talent right to know, that's just one 666 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.639 very little thing of a really big engie to your point. I never understood 667 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.199 that point that people making early sage. It's all about people. It's certainly 668 00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:20.400 about people, but it's not all about people. Okay, that's the point. 669 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.639 They all is the problem I have. It's about people. Need to 670 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:24.880 analyze people. You know, they are they grits? Did they have the 671 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:29.000 grit to take this next level? They have the skills tacking US level. 672 00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.119 They have the ability to the next two or three years without hiring anyone, 673 00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:35.480 almost take it to a next level. I mean there's all of these elements 674 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.880 there which, like market assessment. Again, I'm not talking about all VC 675 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:42.239 investors and all VC firms, but there's may be seen in wrestors, many 676 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.480 VC froms like I know. There's no market analysis. What you mean? 677 00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.119 There's no market analysis. You can do, of course, their market analysis. 678 00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:49.280 You can do market analysa marketing is there, right or no? No, 679 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:51.760 but their market creators? I mean, tell me, are there that 680 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.960 many market careers in the market right now? There are used companies. No, 681 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:58.000 they just came into a market that exists, that disrupted it and took 682 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.239 something. There maybe have been market ex mention, but it took something out 683 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.719 of that market. In general. There's no from the ground up market creation 684 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:07.400 right. So, because markets creation is very difficult, there's a lot of 685 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:09.519 enabling pieces that needs to be done to it. So so now you of 686 00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:13.000 course you can do market analysis, you can do outside in market analysis. 687 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.039 Where the where did these guys fit? Is Their head win or two win 688 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.639 for this market? And honestly, you can have the best founders ever, 689 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.480 but if they're totally committed to a market, if they're not willing to pivot, 690 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.800 if they don't have the agility to go out to it and they are 691 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.599 in a really difficult market that will never be really large or there's a lot 692 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.960 of competition, etc. It is very difficult to win. I have never 693 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.280 seen market always wins. I always say that markets win. So if the 694 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.480 market is crap, you're not going to make it great. It's very in 695 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.400 common that you'll make it great. Like you know, honestly now people would 696 00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:45.599 always give you like Uber taxi market was huge. Right, okay, so 697 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:47.960 when I say crap, it's actually it was a great market to go into 698 00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.639 because it was regulated and the players that were in the market, we're not 699 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.639 very incentivized to make this a great user experience. Right. So I would 700 00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:58.960 say that market was not crap. That was a good market to go into. 701 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.519 It was stuff and there's regulation and there's all the issues that had to 702 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.000 solve. But honestly, there's a lot of elements so that make it a 703 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.880 great market. That doesn't make it a crap. Mark. What's what? 704 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.280 Both is Varudy. Professionally one both is variety. Personally, I'll give you 705 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:14.400 three. Professionally many, but I'd go to the seminal one that I think 706 00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.119 change in my life. It's when I decided maybe I wasn't going to be 707 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:20.000 an engineer, I was going to be a manager or do something around business, 708 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:23.159 which was the Post Capitalist Society by Peter Darker Drucker, for those who 709 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:28.000 don't know, as a former journalist who may now credit. He's now passed 710 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.639 away, but many now credit with having in nted management science, you know, 711 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:36.480 giving science turn to management. Amazing, amazing guy. All the books 712 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.280 that I read from more incredible. But the most capital society is the one 713 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:42.280 that sort of introduces this notion that there's going to be information, rich in 714 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.320 information, poor people, that information is going to be more valuable than money. 715 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.760 And in some ways we now see that, right, know, capitalism 716 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:51.679 is actually linked to information, right. So it's like it's maybe it's not 717 00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:53.880 post capitalist of society, but it's a society that has really gone to the 718 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:58.400 technology side, in the information and data. So that's one book on the 719 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.079 on the professional side, personal side, the how of happiness. And you 720 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:06.559 know, this was written by and I don't want to slaughter her name, 721 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.599 but it's Sonya your Bol Messki. She was a PC from STANDFORD. I 722 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.639 think she's now a professor. Maybe it you see Riverside. I'm not mistaken. 723 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:16.719 Amazing Book. I dislike selfhelp books a lot, but this is like 724 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:20.719 a really good self help book. It's very fact based, there's a lot 725 00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.039 of science behind it and I've used it myself and you know, you know, 726 00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.440 we all go through our all moments in life and I read it at 727 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:29.079 the right moment of my life. It was a fantastic book. And then 728 00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.039 I would add one on the spiritual side which which I read more recently, 729 00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:36.559 which has been very interesting to inform me a serve on the spiritual, semi 730 00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.719 religious stuff, but it's interesting, which is called modern physics ancient faith, 731 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:44.719 which is a really interesting turn on what's happening with physics and how we're changing 732 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.280 our view of the world with physics, and then pull it all back to 733 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.800 spirituality, the existence of God and all that stuff. It's a really interesting 734 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.239 book, even for those are not religious. Is a very thought provoking book 735 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:57.000 because again, it's, you know, a lot of science, a lot 736 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.239 of interesting things in it. You know, really headed to add these to 737 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.639 our book list and I appreciate the reasons why. You're very original. I 738 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.159 don't think we've had anyone on the show mentioned these books. This is brilliant. 739 00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.400 You know. Thanks again for your time. This is so much fun. 740 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:13.199 It's been fun. Thank you, Mike, and there we have it. 741 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.039 It was such a pleasure chatting with new do I hope you all enjoyed 742 00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:19.119 that as much as I did. If you enjoyed this episode, I love 743 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.119 it if you'd write a review on the apple podcast. You're also welcome to 744 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.400 follow me your host, Mike, on twitter at Mike Gelb, and also 745 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:47.679 follow for episode announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening, everyone,