Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael but
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and on this show we talked about
the world of venture capital and innovation in
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both consumer technology and consumer products.
If you're enjoying this content, you could
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subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer
VC DOT sub stackcom, to get each
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new episode and more consumer news delivered
straight to your inbox. Thank you,
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a Chish, for introducing me to
our guest today, new no Pedro,
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one of the CO founders of Chameleon. Chameleon is a venture capital fund that
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typically invest at the seed in series
a level, primarily focused on product led
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technology companies. Some of their portfolio
includes a draft kings, Robin Hood and
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keep safe. We discuss the evolution
of e commerce, if companies actually create
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new markets and how he uses quant
in order to make investment decisions. Without
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further ADO, here's a new no, new know. Thank you so much
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for joining me today. How are
you? I'm well, yeah, Very
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Sunny California, very warm California it
is. I'M IN LA at. I
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feel like the the weather has really
picked up over the past few days.
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Let all as well, and it's
I see that side, especially this time
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of year. Why Start for the
very beginning. What was your initial attra
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action or how did you get interested
in technology? Way Back when? I
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have consumed way too much media,
so TV and movie, since I was
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a kid. I used to read
quite a bit. I still do read
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quite a bit, but I certainly
consumed a lot of TV shows movies and
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I think the first memory I have
a science fiction right and and certainly star
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wars and and all of that stuff, and I was like this is fascinating,
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there's so much cool stuff out there. So in some ways I think
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that was my first attraction to technology
and over time, as I looked more
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and more into it. I've always
been a little bit of a hybrid.
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I'm left being right brain kind of
guy. You know, maybe we'll get
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into that later on, but there
was something about, you know, technology
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and creating something in software or in
hardware. There was in general predictable,
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not always predictable, in general predictive
when relatively tangible, even in software,
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and so I think over time it
just got more and more excited about it.
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I started playing games, I start
coding myself, I became an engineer.
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I have a master's and science compouter
engineering. So it was sort of
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a crescendo. I don't think there
was a like a moment zero was like,
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Oh my God, I need to
be a technology but it was like
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it was clearly an important facet of
my life. What do you have a
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technology? I know you've been in
a number of roles, you've worn a
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number of hats, but what land
did you on? Venture capital and actually
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like more so like the investing side
of things. What do you love about
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Ed your capital? That's really quite
unique. I think it's the end of
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something and maybe the beginning of something
else. I've been in tech for a
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long time, twenty five years.
I'm actually not that old, but I
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started I started were working full time
through college, which was a bit messochistic,
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as well as I started doing it. You know, I've done a
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variety of different things. I've developed, I've been a product manager, engineering
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manager, I was a growth operator, strategy, corporate development, product business
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development. I had a bit of
a sint with McKenzie as well, after
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being their client, which is extremely
odd. I was a senior expert in
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and member of the Asia Pacific Technology
Medium Telecom leadership team, and as part
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of that I was working mostly with
large corporations and you know it's difficult to
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make you know, using server Gersner's
words, to make elephants dance. And
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I am very lucky, I'm very
blessed. I've worked in genuine projects and
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with genuine companies over my life,
not just as an operator directly or as
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a consultant, that we did feel
impact, we did feel there was change
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and shift. But the venture capital
things started really with starting to work with
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startups and and when in particular led
by three Israeli brothers and during doing some
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stuff around the area that I was
in at that point in time, when
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I was still at GSM Association,
in between GSM Association and Mackenzie, I
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helped them figure out their strategy and
how they would go after carriers and how
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they would do a bunch of stuff
and then in the end I ended up
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actually helping them exit right to and
as that quoted company. And I was
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hooked because the speed, the acceleration, the pace of startups is just so
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different from large organizations. It's not
about the fact that large organizations on have
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impact or they don't do big things
at scale, or even that they can
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have some velocity, but the acceleration
in startups was like something I was hooked
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on at some point in time when
I was at kings as like I need
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to spend more time with these startups
at mckinzie. It was difficult back in
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the day. My kinsis changed quite
a bit since then, but it was
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difficult back in the day, and
so I sort of put myself in that
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position. I start spending a lot
of time in the bay area, although
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I was based in Asia, so
in the San Francisco Bay area, took
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a few advisoryport positions, worked with
a few very early android plays and you
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know, it's like there's something here
and at a certain point in time I
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was like, you know, how
do I play in this market? Do
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I become an entrepreneur myself? And
I was like no, I'm too much
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of a portfolio guy. Am I
a banker? I'm not a banker.
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Of then my favory bit of bank
and stuff over the years, and I've
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done corporate development by side as well. that. Somehow it just coalesced right.
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It was a bunch of circumstances came
together as part of an advisory board
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rule the people that are the person
that I was advising and up merging with
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another organization. That person ended up, you know, reaching out to me
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and said should we do something together? And a little bit by accident,
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and I think it was really the
genesis of the idea was really from from
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this person was like, let's do
a venture capital firm, a micro venture
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capital firm, when the term was
just coming out, and let's do something.
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And so it was a little bit
by accident. As I said,
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it's the end of something in the
beginning of something else. In some ways,
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I feel being a venture capitalist uses
all the skills that I've developed all
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over these years. Right, so
it uses the ability to do twenty analysis
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as soon as you get in the
room, five minutes in your sort of
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getting the industry more less. My
product management background brings me to understanding product
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my ability to get people. I
work with people most of my life,
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although, you know, very early
on I saw myself as a very big
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introvert. I think today I would
see myself as an extreme extrovert, extreme
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introvert, so a real hardcore am
be vert. So there's a lot of
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things, I think in a lot
of pieces that came to other the ability
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to bridge world's to be very polished
around, see suites of, you know,
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top companies in the world, ends
of billions of dollars, and then
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just wear a Henley shirt like I
am wearing right now and meet with entrepreneurs
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and be cool. Right. Then
they're like you're a cool guy, right.
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So so all of that, I
think, came together in this in
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this part of my career. Was
it difficult, you know, I'd imagine
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working mckinzie and also just advising or
chatting with, as you say, like
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like the billion dollar company CEO and
these large corporations. Was it like a
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tough skill set to then change gears
into dual capitals, that you're working with
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such early stage companies and you're chatting
with such companies that don't have crazy budgets
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and are really trying to grow?
was that quite like a difficult part for
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you to do? Or we're not
so much? Not so much. I
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had a couple friend of mine used
to call me a paradox and then I
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had another friend of mine used to
call me the best actor that they've ever
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met. I've never done any acting, by the way. So my philosophical
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view is I'm very eclectic and I
think in some ways venture capital used all
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these different aspects. Right, I
can be super megapolished, right, I
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can be in front of someone and
it's very helpful sometimes to start ups.
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Right, you're in the front of
trying to do a big bed deal and
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you need a little bit of heelop, you need a little shepherding. It's
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good to have sort of this person
coming in and behaving like just like the
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way they do. I remember I
had a story meeting at a very well
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known Japanese company, Very Large Jepanis
Company, and I was with an entrepreneur
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and we were meeting them and you
know, I brought my cars, gave
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him my cars with a two hands, gave the got the cars and the
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entrepreneurs looking at music. What are
you doing? It is like, this
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is how you do it in Japan. And this guy thought I was just
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a nice guy. Rights, is
like, yeah, you're a cool guy,
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and so in some ways it's not. It wasn't very difficult for me.
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It uses both sides. Sometimes it's
important to be I would say there
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are skills that are brought from McKinsey
that I use all the time, right,
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being structured problem solving, you know, being clear in terms of analysis
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and getting to the gist of it
and being sharp in that analysis and the
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inside of what is there and that
I use every day, every single day.
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So I wouldn't say that's like there's
a problem with the skill set you
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bring from there. It's actually extremely
valuable and you have a lot of great
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entrepreneurs that were x mckinsites and a
lot of great vcs that are x mckinzike.
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In some ways I think I just
it. For me it's more natural
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to being formal than formal, but
because I had like six years or formality
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with mckinzie in Asia, sort of
I can do that with my eyes because
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I can put the suit on and
look just like anyone else and then I
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can take it out and put my
t shirts or Hoodie and everyone's Oh,
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you're a cool guy. So it's
it's for me it's honestly very, very
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simple. It's I don't have multiple
personality disorder. I just serve. That's
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my environment. I like shifting from
one side. Maybe I do like shifting
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from one side to the other.
I'm curious that you had a lot of
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experience in Asia. Do you ever
look at agent say you know what,
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I can see this type of technology
come over to the US and why would
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wake its way the West versus some
of the others which you don't think?
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Maybe our is relevant to the West, or how do you have to think
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of these like kind of cross border
sharing of technology from a nation Perspectis?
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Start with, first Prince Pulls Asia
doesn't really exist. It's a call it
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the western construct. I think Europe, certainly Western Europe, is is more
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and more anolithic. You know,
we Portuguese always think that the Germans are
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very different, etcetera. With were
more similar than, I think, all
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the different countries in Asia. You
can go to from China, Beijing,
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north China, to Korea, which
is literally next door, and you like
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you're in the different universe. That's
very different. People behave differently, etc.
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I'd say just maybe simplifying a little
bit. You know, there's China
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and China is its own backyard.
It is such a large market that it
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commands its own place. I think
for a long time there's this view this
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is just copycatting, is just stealing
the taxonomy that is worked in the West
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and we're doing they're doing it at
skilled for China. It for a certain
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period of time. I think that
was actually correct. There was quite a
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lot of copycatting. I don't think
it's true anymore. There's a lot of
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productivation coming out of China. I'd
say there's been a lot of operating model
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innovation and in escape innovation coming from
China for decades now, well over a
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decade. You know, we look
at some of the big players, the
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way they do things there is just
that it's a different ball game. E
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commerce, payments, guys like Ali
Baba, they've been writing the rules.
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If anything, you see players like
Camuson and others copying from them, Talbau
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and their success, you know,
Alli pay on the payment side, etc.
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Right, you see tenson being the
giant that they are and being very
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alone to games before anyone thought games
were going to be mass market and the
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like. They were there very early
and they were do a variety but things.
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Probably one of the best corporate venture
capital arms. I wouldn't call it
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really corporate Fitch capitalar but tencenten and
probably one of the best investors out of
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any corporate investors out there in the
market. So I think there's a lot
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about scalability of the Chinese model that
applied to China. Then the rest of
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Asia as its own rules. I
mean India. It's India, so it's
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in a little bit similar like China. There's some complexes about India's probably less,
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you know, infrastructure, rich in
terms of development, like China,
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a lot because of national institutional strategy, but a lot of private initiative as
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well. So there's a lot of
interesting things happening there. Are Southeast Asia
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seems to be a little bit when
we talk about Southeast Ages, we talk
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about it like a little bit more
monolithically, although again they're very different.
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I mean the niche is a huge
country, Singapore s tiny. So there's
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a lot of things there. What
can you use from at what you can
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you bring back to us in Western
markets? We can bring, honestly,
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everything back. I think it just
needs to be adapted. I mean gaming
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culture. You could say, well, there's things that work in gaming in
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Asia and Korea, Japan China that
don't work well in Western markets. That's
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probably true. So there's obviously user
experiences, characters, things that maybe don't
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resonate as much, but honestly there's
a lot of stuff that does resonate.
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And a second thing I would say
is also in this happened in the good
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old days of snapchat, this notion
of Super Apps, which may be less
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supplicable to Western markets where it seems
like people want stuff more unbundled. So
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I would say there's actually you could
sort of go through things that maybe don't
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work and don't resonate, the don't
scale, but there's a lot of stuff
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that resonates in skills. I think
part of the difficulty is a lot of
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these Asian markets that have been talking
about are not naturally very good at what
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I would call International Business Development,
so the ability to strike partnerships sell internationally
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for a variety of reasons. Culturally
there it's just sort of not where they're
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coming from and sort of in the
US would take that for granted because somehow
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people are born with a marketing and
sales chip under brain and and so they
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grow up selling right, they sell
stuff all their lives that then they're like,
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why are these, you know,
wonderful companies in Asia not very good
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at selling here? They will like
they're not used to selling the way you
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do right. You know, language
barriers, cultural barriers, etc. Stuff.
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So that is also a little bit
of an Isishe but I think that,
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you know, Asians coming and was
coming very hard if we look five,
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six years back terms of investments and
trying to deploy things. I think
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it will see more of that.
Will see more of that translation of products
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from Asia really tapping well into Western
markets. In some ways there's leap frogging
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and there's very new once sleep frogging. That's sometimes we fail to associate to
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it came from China or it came
from Asia. I'll give you to examples.
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One is like a you know the
father a very good friend of mine.
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He doesn't use cash anymore in China. I mean I lived in China
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for six years. Everyone use cash. I went back after for or five
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years. I mean a seventy something
year old never takes cash with him anymore.
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It just has his phone, he
has we chat, he has alle
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pay as everything that he needs.
Ad Doesn't need anything else. And he's
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been going on for years now.
So it's not a new thing. And
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now in the US we're like,
oh, finally it's coming because of covid
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and whatever, people that want to
touch and they want to Cavin. So
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they're like it's been going in China
for a while. So that's when example.
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The second example, you know,
video streaming, watching TV movies.
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Obviously there's a lot of piracy.
The early hunt in China when I went
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there with the DVD's that you could
buy, and I'm not going to details
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if I ever bought any DVD I'm
not going to say anything. But honestly,
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you know, circuit two thousand and
eight, two thousand and nine,
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I got my first Google TV set
up box right which I think was done
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by Logitech, and I connected it
to the Internet. I put in from
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my tv any ways. That I
won't describe. You know, this was
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the early days of tea and a
couple of other streaming platforms in China,
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but there was obviously some dark stuff
as well going on. I started using
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it and it was very clear to
me this was the future of watching TV
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and movies. The whole linear thing
was in terms of mass market, mainstream
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was dead and it was clear to
me, as I said, around two
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thousand nine or so, and it
was in China right, it wasn't in
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the US, and in the US
I don't think that was the case back
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then. So in some ways they've
been showing us the way as well,
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and sometimes it's not that. Then
the product that wasn't in China becomes big
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in the US, but the use
case gets big in the US. And
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if we see, you know,
things like clubhouse and a lot of these
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platforms were people getting to, you
know, in two different in different rooms
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and share and talk and there's a
facilitator honestly started in China to him start
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here. Right. So there's now
a lot of actually reverse copycatting. The
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people. I don't know if it's
arrogance or if it's maybe lack of that
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connection. People fail to admit there's
a lot of copycatting. And now happened
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the other way around. In terms
of products, right, a lot of
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people are copying features and products in
the US that have been happening in China
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four years, right, for example, or in other parts of Asian how
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do you think? Where did your
mind go when you think about opportunities here
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in the United States and within consumer
it could be things you've seen in other
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countries and you think, because anology
come over here, what just overall,
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broadly, just defink appelling. Yeah, and I'll give you a little bit
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of a laundrealist there's obviously a very
over archie thoughts that I have around consumer
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demographics and how they're changing. The
first two are seemingly obvious, but apparently
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not totally obvious. We have two
huge shifts in demographics right now. One
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is we have probably the first senior
demographics, so to speak. You know,
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six thousand and sixty five and above
that have been dishally educated. They've
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worked with digital tools most of their
lives and that takes away a lot of
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the attrition, a lot of the
barrier to entry into technologies like, you
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know, doing stuff online, doing
that on your mobile phone, and that
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changes how you address that demographic.
So I feel there's a lot of really
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interesting opportunities around that because, if
you remember, there's always been this thing
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about the seniors are always a complex
demographic because they don't use technology themselves and
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because there's sort of two buyers.
In effect, there's one buyer and one
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user. There's the buyer, which
might be one of their kids, right,
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and then there's the user, which
is the father or the mother,
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right. And I think we're going
to start seeing less of that. And
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since we start seeing less of that, since the buyer and the user start
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being the same person, everything shifts
everything changes, the use cases change and
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honestly, there's so few great things
for certain aspects of the life of a
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senior person that, to be honest, I can't see how that doesn't get
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untapped. Right, it's not just
support systems and home care and all that
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stuff, right, it's more than
that, right, social networks and,
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you know, it's interactivity and it's, you know, gaming as well.
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It's all of the stuff. I
think we'll will shift and change. Then
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the other one that everyone talks about
is obviously gens ars. Very different generation
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from millennials, you know, we
can go on and on around, but
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clearly more authentic in how they look
at life. You know, Clubo.
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The notion of purpose is more embedded
there. Maybe it's an issue of fear,
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maybe it's an issue fear as and
we're all going to die, you
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know, with climate change and all
that, but there's definitely a notion that
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is coming with a generation very,
very different from millennials. I'm not saying
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better or worse, but I definitely
believe that the use cases, that the
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taxonomy of what's going to lead in
terms of services for that generation, social
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networks, messaging tools, you know
how they do stuff, you know,
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in terms of productivity that they bring
into their own jobs, you know,
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bring your own service, as I
used to call it. It's going to
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be very different and that, I
think, were it's in itself a sea
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of opportunities. That is pretty amazing. Tick talk is sort of taken over
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the world, in particular because of
Jens years late millennials. But I think
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there's more to come. There's more
to come and it's exciting because nobody can
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immediately figure it out. So at
the top, and I would say those
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are the two key the bographic ships
we're going to we're seeing. But then
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if you go below and things that
excite me a lot, like ECOMMERCE,
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we've been talking about, you know, hourly deliveries, and now in some
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cities we started starting to see that. You Know Capullar, you know quick
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commerce. Q commerce is sort of
something that is coming actually a lot from
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India and from China, which,
if you think about it, are densely
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populated in this big cities, and
so therefore the models work really well early
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days. In the US. I
don't think it's nail yet. I think
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the delivery models in the US are
all sort of in flu right now.
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I mean, if you ask me, is Amazon going to be used player
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of the future? For sure,
but are there are going to be other
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players that mightymerrs, that might have
a chance, food tag, food commerce,
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all of that. I think there's
a lot of innovation coming around that
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excites me a lot. SMART home. So the way I think about it
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is I think the home is going
to be fundamentally shifted and change. Mobility
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is going to continue being changed,
and you know, not just the self
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driving car use cases and all that
stuff, but there's a fundamental shift around
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how you move around and why you
move around. Covid is also precipitated that
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in some ways. And then the
workplace, for sure, is going to
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change, and we know that right
and many people think it's going to be
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remote. The world's going to be
remote, everyone's going to work from home.
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I'm pretty sure you know that's not
going to be the case. I
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bet more on a hybrid model where
they're still office, they're still work functions,
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they're still getting together, and then
there's Home Office and that again shifts
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everything. So I like to look
at it a lot from these perspectives,
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bottom up and top down, and
top down I go through demographics, I
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go through markets, I go through
places, locations, and then I try
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to understand what are the latent demand
use cases. I use I use it's
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from latent demand use case that are
out being well served or things that could
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actually be untapped, and then we
do a lot of thinking bottom up.
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We do a lot of thinking bottom
up, looking at specific demographics, specific
325
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subdemographics, specific segments, in figuring
out with in products, if that those
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00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.799
products address them well. Right.
So, so it's a little bit of
327
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that mix. It's a mix of
you know, what Excel would call the
328
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prepared mind, market analysis, et
Cetera, in the good old days.
329
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You know, benchmark talks about very
bottom up thinking complex systems. We're probably
330
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closer to the bottom up route of
the world and the benchmark model, so
331
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to speak, as a VIGIA venture
cantual firm. But at the end we
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think both ways all the time,
top down, bottom up all the time.
333
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What are the maybe you cases is
we haven't talked as much of the
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show about. As you say,
like seniors are artdly educated and are now
335
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much more and are able to,
you know, use your phones or just
336
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use technology in a lot better way. As investor is the type of thing
337
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where you think about services and you
think, okay, what is maybe like
338
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a ddacy online model look like that
particular service, or what kind of get
339
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.160
you excited? Maybe it could be
like a company you saw recently, or
340
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just as your kind of thinking about
opportunities. They get too excited when it
341
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comes to this massive kind of statement
that seniors are are digitally educated. The
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home environment for seniors is very different
and in some cases, if you have
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chronic illness, for some reason your
significant others passed away, your lonely,
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you're by yourself. So there's a
lot of dynamics around your interactions that are
345
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quite different within the home and obviously
there's the logic of if you fall,
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should you have a device or your
phone? All those use kisses, I
347
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think, are well understood and there's
a lot of companies out they're trying to
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address that. But it's sort of
going beyond that ass entertainment for it then,
349
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right, you know what serf of
entertainments would like to I would do?
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I communicate with my family, right, you know, we see seniors
351
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being, for example, more voice
called prepense than you know, other demographics,
352
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.119
for sure. Right. So,
but you know the voice call demographics.
353
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Maybe our good for video as well. Right then, we've sort of
354
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threw video away many years ago,
many moons ago. It's like video want
355
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to unless it's professional. People don't
like to do it all the time and
356
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maybe actually there are tools out there
that should be done for them. Gaming
357
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entertained and you know, there's this
notion that gaming is just for people my
358
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.960
generation and below or just for young
people. It's not true. You know,
359
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.720
a significant part of gamers now it's
truly a mainstream phenomenon and you know,
360
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.680
there are elements. I wouldn't say
that we need necessarily new gaming companies
361
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.839
to do games for seniors. Maybe
there is a play around that at some
362
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.559
point in time in terms of game
design again, format, etc. But
363
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.839
more interesting than that, there's definitely
a lot of tooling around social dynamics.
364
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.720
I'm not going to use the example
my mother because she's not particularly takes savvy,
365
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.759
but let's assume an ipothetical mother that
was digitally and technically savvy. She
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00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.440
would have difficulty interacting and going to
read it to figure out what to do
367
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.160
in our game right. She would
have difficulty in figuring out this chord right
368
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.319
and how to interact with our gamers. So you know, are there possibilities
369
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around these these types of dimensions that
are that are very different. So that's
370
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how you look at it. In
all honestly, I think in seniors were
371
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we're very thoughtful on the top down, but we also always look at the
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opportunities because there might be something that
just toldly disrupts the market. And our
373
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.000
review of the world is in demographics
that are rapid changes, where it's very
374
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unclear exactly where they're going to end
up. You know, you can do
375
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:08.480
the top down work all day long
in the markets, canny all day long,
376
00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.319
and the latent, you know the
the latent, the man use cases
377
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that are talked about earlier. But
at some point you just need to look
378
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.160
at a lot of companies and be
like, okay, I don't think this
379
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:21.319
is going to be interesting and and
so that volume is also important, high
380
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.160
quality companies, but at volume that
you can see in the specific here to
381
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.799
to make up your mind, to
see what's probably next out there. I
382
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.880
mean to give you a very stupid
example. Direct consumer is obvious that needs
383
00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.359
to be shifted. I mean the
DDC. One point on model, you
384
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.519
know has shown us that just marketing
innovation, Seo, all these things is
385
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.519
not enough. There needs to be
product innovation. And as we look at
386
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.640
product innovation, we also start looking
at other types of innovation and interaction.
387
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.400
Right. So, for again,
for seniors, making it really, really
388
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.359
simple to interact with the service,
figure out how to do, for example,
389
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.720
acclaim or send something back or all
of that. I mean, honestly,
390
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.200
ecommerce in many senior segments it hasn't
been started at all. Right,
391
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.880
it's still in its infancy because it's
complex, because I want to put my
392
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.519
credit card on that website and how
does that work? And then if I
393
00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.160
get it and I don't like it, what do I do? And you
394
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.799
know, we take it forget because
we can go and send emails to the
395
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:11.559
customer service, got on calls for
a long time, do whatever, and
396
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.640
we started out right. It's probably
ready for the picking. We probably have
397
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.839
already all the tools that we need
to make these experiences really good. And
398
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.400
maybe it's going to be done by
existing players that are doing direct consumer ECOMMERCE,
399
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.559
but maybe not, maybe that's not
the angle right. Maybe there are
400
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.319
asking us out there and a bunch
of opportunities that will be driven by other
401
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:30.759
players in the mark. I'll give
you a supid example. Right, we
402
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.359
take for granted that we want more
and more thermal communication. Right, you
403
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.759
know, snapchat, all these things
that have evolved. Now we would we
404
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.680
don't want to actually be able to
see things that we said or someone sent
405
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.519
to us for a long period of
time. It's very firm or whatever,
406
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.160
if you believe that the world in
some ways, you know email is still
407
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.880
has its place in the world,
that it's sort of a old technology,
408
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.000
but there's other messaging technologies that are
much better. The issue persistency of information
409
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.880
is very important for seniors, right. It's like, where can I find
410
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.640
I think you send me to they
and I mean I'm getting discussion for my
411
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:03.599
mom all the Times. Like,
you know, you send me this inttle
412
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.279
bit. Where can I find it? Again, it's like, you know,
413
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.759
and and, and thank God she's
not switching phones at the past that
414
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.440
I'd switch frones, because otherwise we
would have a real problem. Right.
415
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.079
But persistency of from information, I
do manage the PERCINC see of that information
416
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.119
in a communication to maybe again,
the current communication to providers, the whatsapps
417
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.000
at such with the world can address
that. Maybe they can't. Maybe it
418
00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:25.960
needs to be something totally different.
And so again there's use cases that you're
419
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.240
like, oh, but but that's
been sort on the problem in the past.
420
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.160
Yeah, cool, it was sort
of in the past, but because
421
00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:33.799
we evolved in terms of generations,
the current mainstream offerings in terms of features
422
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.720
have taken it away. It's not
a given anymore. And so how do
423
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.720
you address that, for example,
is pretty interesting. How do you think
424
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.839
about that as the investor of overall? Is it kind of like a race
425
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.960
to the bottom with price and just
thinking that, oh, like, like
426
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.039
the Tam of course, is massive, so it's okay, even the how
427
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.559
do you think about that space overall? We're an early stage investor where in
428
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:59.000
early stage we see but we have
we've all been entrepreneurs in the partnership.
429
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:00.599
We've all been entrepreneurs, we've all
been opera is its scale. We've done
430
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.039
really large scale ups and we've all
been, you know, investors for a
431
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:08.440
long time, and so we've learned
the hard way that you can't just disconnect
432
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.079
your sort of skeptical mind into it. And so the first thing we actually
433
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.000
think is actually something that comes much
later on, which is unit economics.
434
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.680
And we're like how could this work? Right, and the normally early stage
435
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.160
guys we don't think too much about
that, but then this case it's like,
436
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:23.519
well, a second can we look
at the large guys and figure out
437
00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.039
if they can ever hit unit to
economics that are positive on this and at
438
00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.960
what scale they need to hit it? So I think the skeptic in me,
439
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.119
and just to give a very short
answer, because I could sort of
440
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.039
a ramble on this for a couple
of hours. It's a it's a passion
441
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.359
of mine. The first sort of
the skeptical one, says there's no way
442
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.200
in hell that the small guy is
going to win this. Right, maybe
443
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.519
a couple of small guys are going
to be bought out, but then the
444
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.920
Amazons of the world just win it
because it's an extension of capularity for them
445
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:52.079
and they have the ability to make
the United Economics work at scale with infrastructure.
446
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.359
If you look at what Ali Baba
did in China with them and all
447
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.319
their stores for last mile delivery,
you know these corner shops, which they're
448
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.839
super smart. They use these corner
shops not just for corner shops but also
449
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.039
for distribution. Right. That's like
nailing it. Right. And again Ali
450
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.480
Baba did it right. It wasn't
an INCOMBA and it wasn't a startup that
451
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:11.960
came from out of nowhere. And
so there's one part of me that says
452
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.599
that says, you know, it's
then, in my analogy, a future
453
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:15.720
rather than a business, right,
and if it's, if he should gets
454
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.920
bought by a big business. I
do think there is something interesting. And
455
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.440
how you rethink local delivery? Are
you re think in particularly the one hour
456
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.440
delivery or less right? But again
it's horses for courses. It's like,
457
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:32.799
do I always need one hour delivery? I'm not sure you do and I'm
458
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.839
pretty sure you don't. And so
you know, what is it useful for?
459
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.279
And in some ways I think there's
obvious use cases. You need something,
460
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.920
last minute emergence, you preparing a
lunch and dinner, you have a
461
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.680
party, you missing something, you
know you're sick. I mean there's all
462
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.680
these use cases that we can come
up pretty quickly. But there might be
463
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.279
something else to it and I think
that's the part we're still missing in that
464
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.480
space. I haven't met the start
up that come come to me is like,
465
00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.920
okay, there's all of that stuff
cool, but this is a really
466
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.400
big business, not because of all
of that stuff, but because of this,
467
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.000
because of these use cases that you
guys haven't seen yet, right,
468
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.759
and that's the future, right,
that's what's going to happen next. I
469
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.960
haven't seen that yet. So again, you know, the optimist in me
470
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.720
says maybe I'll find that at some
point. It's like, you know,
471
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:17.400
looking for Cinderella or still looking,
but we will find it. For Cinderella,
472
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.559
looking for the for the prince in
the other way. But in some
473
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.319
ways I think we're missing, missing
that piece. Right. What makes this
474
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:26.039
work? Is it? Is it
a problem that really needs to be solved?
475
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.160
And I don't see a lot of
people questioning get. Everyone's like of
476
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:33.200
course, because we've gone down for
months of delivery time, two weeks,
477
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.440
to two days and to one day. So obviously next step is one hour.
478
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.880
I'm like, okay, but when
I was a different problem right all
479
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.160
together, logistically. So do we
really need it and what would it be
480
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.359
for? Right, for example,
I haven't seen this is shocking. I'm
481
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.039
sure they're. There are players doing
this right now in the market. I'm
482
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.359
sure after this podcast I'm going to
get a message on Linkedin from one of
483
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.480
them, because they're always like,
oh, you two better this and we're
484
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.319
doing it. Like I haven't seen
a guy who's doing quick commerce. It's
485
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.440
just for produced for example, or
quick commerce it just for fresh meat or
486
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.319
protein or whatever's this for that?
Like I this is what we are nailing
487
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.480
right. Yeah, and this is
how we expand our use cases. And
488
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:11.599
it's interesting to me because they're like, Oh, I'm giving you all these
489
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.079
things, you know, your kid
kats and whatever, like a kid Kad
490
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.519
whatever. I can go to the
supermarket. It's next door, right.
491
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:19.759
So it's like what else can you
give me? We'll see. So the
492
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.480
Jew is definitely still out on quick
commerce. I'm we spend a lot of
493
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.799
time on it. I'm not sure
if we'll make a lot of investments in
494
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.559
the space. The key concern is
really unit economics and how it's skills.
495
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.079
Yeah, talk to me a little
bit bout chameleon. How did Chameleon come
496
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:36.119
together? So Chameleon is my new
VC firm and my third fund, and
497
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:40.640
it really coalesces or came together around
three people that just wanted to work together.
498
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.200
Actually, it's more than three now, but it started with three and
499
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.960
me Dr Some EU and and and
Alex Sentos in Europe, and the three
500
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.359
of us have known each other for
a long time. So you and I've
501
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.839
known each other for fourteen years now. We've been investing together for four years.
502
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.319
Alex and I have known each other
for six years. We've been invested
503
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.759
yet for five, five and a
half years, and so it's just a
504
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.160
bunch of people that, to be
honest, in our own right, we
505
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.279
could probably do a single gp form
ourselves around the table, could just do
506
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.200
our own funds, but we just
wanted to do together. And the reason
507
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.039
why, I think we wanted to
do it together is one a lot of
508
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:18.119
trust in respecting each other at all
levels, intellectual, you know, emotional.
509
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:19.640
We actually have. The first thing
we wrote together as a partnership was
510
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.960
our value system, which is in
our website at Chameleon, that BC.
511
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:26.920
It's chameleon with a in the middle, just to be clear. Chameleon,
512
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.319
that VC and and it was the
first time, the first thing we actually
513
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:33.559
wrote, I mean before we even
started fundraising. Honestly, like, this
514
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.359
is our value system and and we
aligned by that. And the second part
515
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:40.160
why we really wanted to work together
is all very different. I mean we
516
00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.480
just, I mean, as I
mentioned, I'm in hardcore em be vert,
517
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.440
extrovert, introvert. You know,
one of my partners is very introvert.
518
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.880
The other partners were called marginally extrovert. We bring very different skill sets
519
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.960
the table, experiences as a table. We get excited about different things and
520
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.240
I think that's what makes for a
great partnership and venture capital. It's a
521
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:03.160
partnership that's a extremely diverse, right, extremely IQ, at least there's a
522
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.319
couple of people on the team that
are extremely ie Q, right, but
523
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.119
extremely diverse, but where there's a
place where we all come together, right,
524
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.799
where we all align, where we
all trust each other, and that
525
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:17.359
place is our values, the values
we share, and that's if you think
526
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.160
about, if you talked to you
know, partnerships that have dissolved in venture
527
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.960
capital, a lot of these partnerships
that have dissolved in venture capital were dissolved
528
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.640
because of that right. There were
dissolved because of, you know, ego
529
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.440
started getting in the way, there
were problems, there are things that didn't
530
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.799
happen at scale and, you know, there wasn't that much alignment around value
531
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.759
system. Probably they did think in
the first place that they would have and
532
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.160
they didn't indiend, and also mean
they might have dissolved because they might have
533
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.880
no it are very long. Yeah, right, the fact that you three
534
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.759
have had none each other for a
long time and also really, I'm dissected
535
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:51.799
in terms of what are your diversity
in terms of introvert extrovert, a kind
536
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.039
of what you being a table there. I think it's that's obviously really important
537
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.559
and we talked a lot about the
compilary skills for founders and cope batters,
538
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.799
but it's also the same is true
with these funds. It's worse. In
539
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.440
a start up you have a CEO
normally. I mean there's some cases where
540
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.920
people go with Coco type structures,
but you normally have a CEO and a
541
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.279
CEO is the person that will fight, makefile and calls. In most venture
542
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.400
capital firms there's a partnership and calls
are distributed and in some cases you don't
543
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:17.920
need to have a unanimity to make
those calls. And and so I always
544
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:22.039
say this is actually even worse.
In some ways it's like a marriage where
545
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.200
we see each other all the time, we direct all the time and make
546
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.039
decisions together all the time on the
stupidest things, right and this is we'd
547
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.640
never scale at the scale of a
start up. So it's not like we
548
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.200
magically will have stylens of a hundred
people that were managing down the road.
549
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.720
We won't rite we you know we're
going to be thirteen people and that's already
550
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.599
really large vac firm by Silicon Valley. Turns like we're part of the five
551
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.400
percent that has more than ten percent, that that has ten or more people.
552
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.920
So again, honestly, it's very
tough. I would like to put
553
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.240
the plug in of the other part
of why we did chameleon the way we
554
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:52.279
did it. There's two really distinctive
aspects of what we do at Chameleon.
555
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.559
One is obviously firms of advisors,
scouts, all the stuff, and they
556
00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:00.960
have different programs. We were like, this is too complicated. We have
557
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.559
one program and it's called Ashtech can
and we bring everyone underneath it and it
558
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.799
might be that they're going to help
our portfolio companies, it might be that
559
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:09.240
they help us, it might be
that actually help our lps in whatever capacity
560
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.599
right. Scouts, operators, advisors, whatever their askteck in right and they're
561
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.920
all under this umbrella. And you
know it's been we haven't launched it officially
562
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.799
yet, but it's been a wonderful
experience to put that together from from our
563
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:23.640
experiences in the past having worked all
over the world. The second piece,
564
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:29.240
which is probably even more uncommon in
early stage for sure, and I think
565
00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:32.599
the overall venture capital, is we
venture capital investors, almost all of us
566
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:37.200
invest in tech, but we don't
use any tech since like so we make
567
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.559
money out of investing in tech companies
that go and sell to other businesses,
568
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.480
to people and do stuff and whatever, and then we don't use it.
569
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:45.680
As I cool. And now we
start seeing some people who have to their
570
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:50.880
text tag, they have their affinity
for crm and they're doing some stuff around
571
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.319
desk, research, whatever. We
actually have a quantum tech team that's larger
572
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.799
than our dealty. We develop our
own engines and house for dealsourcing, due
573
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:00.960
diligence, portfolio management. We think
through these things at length, right and
574
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.119
there has to be this notion that
it has to be deeply embedded in everything
575
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.519
we do as a deal team.
And so you know, I'm one of
576
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.400
the product managers on this. I'm
one of the people that interaction more directly
577
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.839
with the technology team. You have
to have this interaction all the times,
578
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.960
like what, what do you features? Do you need? When I meet
579
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.000
the Tech Team I always have a
new requirements and stuff. We're always discussing
580
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.839
and negotiating on timeline. So I'm
like, I'm back to buy good old
581
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.559
days of product management. It's that
type of obsession that you need to have
582
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:27.480
to make it work, because it
needs to be deeply embedded in your processes
583
00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.480
as a venture capital front and we
set out to do this not because we
584
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:32.359
want to be disruptors, not because
we think other VC firms are all crap.
585
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.960
It's not true. There are great
VC firms out there, but because
586
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:37.279
we think this is needs to be
done. This is the only way to
587
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.480
scale the satisfied class properly. This
is the only way to do this acid
588
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.880
class in a way that is not
only more fact based and better, but
589
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.119
it actually provides better and more predictable
returns, which is historically what's been wrong
590
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.680
with this acid class. And so
in some ways we believe in people.
591
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:58.480
Ashtech can is approve of that.
We believe power of making that final call
592
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.559
on the person we were working with
in the entferner. But there's this lack
593
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.519
of technology and quantitative assessment and data. That is sorely missed, I think,
594
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.280
in the early stage side and we're
addressing out with community. No,
595
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.880
I love that and I would also
love to know how does the quantum tech
596
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.519
team collaborate with the deal team,
because I'd imagine that the reason why the
597
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.239
VC firms may not have, you
know, quantum tech side is because,
598
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.039
you know, they're just is it
that much data at the very early tages
599
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.800
on companies and what have you?
Is the quantum tech is that looking more
600
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.440
so at ad top down analysis,
at at industries and kind of like the
601
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:38.000
Macro Lens? What's kind of like
the relationship between the content tech and and
602
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:42.679
the dealty? So I I want
divulge a lot right that. Want to
603
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.760
open the Kimono fully, because there's
a lot of stuff here that's it's not
604
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.199
just confidential, proprietary, but it's
more than that. It's nuanced, right.
605
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.960
It's like I might say something that
some people interpret Oh, that's pretty
606
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.000
simple to do, and I'm like, we spent one month doing that,
607
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.800
right, so it's not that simple. Okay, so let me give you
608
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.880
an example. We have several criteria
sets. Let's say we have a criteria
609
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.639
set that is linked to talent,
right. We're looking for pointers and signals
610
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:09.039
that show if the talent on that
company, right, is great or not,
611
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:12.519
and we want to score it.
Okay. And so if we want
612
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:14.280
to score it, there's a bunch
of stuff we can go out to,
613
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.599
right, I mean we can have
access to different data sources, you know,
614
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.960
linkedin. There could be some payday
to sources out there telling me not
615
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.119
be a great example for that.
We go into Angel List, were going
616
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:25.760
to classify as, we look into
dd we look at a bunch of other
617
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:30.119
data sources. We scrape information from
the Internet, we get all of this
618
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:31.280
certain version and we try and make
sense of it. We try and like,
619
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.719
okay, this is noise information,
I try, I want to make
620
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.880
sense of it, right. And
so when we make sense of all of
621
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.159
it, we then basically transform it
into something that's actionable and that is,
622
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.320
you know, uniquely position for us
to have a score that links to it.
623
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:46.239
Then why, as you start having
a lot of data points, you
624
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.800
can see what does the ninety percent, I'll, look like for that vertical.
625
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.760
They are these guys well above that
percentall or not tried, and so
626
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.320
think of this as one criteria set, but then we have multiple criteria sets,
627
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.280
not just talent, and then we
have an overall score and then we
628
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:04.159
have a bunch of other stuff and
out of that we basically generate, you
629
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:07.199
know, something that is actionable.
And so, for example, for deal
630
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.800
sourcing, we'd be able to generate
an outbound list for specific verticals where I,
631
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.760
as a deal team member, can
pick up on that outbound and then
632
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:16.559
reach out to that to that company
and say, okay, these guys are
633
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:20.719
interesting because there scores high from our
engine and it wasn't on my radar.
634
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.559
And it's almost magical because once you
do it really well, you might be
635
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.199
talking to companies. Just to give
one example, you might be talking to
636
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.239
companies that are not raising yet but
might be thinking of raising on two or
637
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.480
three months, and two or three
months time advantage on deal flow is the
638
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.719
avantage between getting a great valuation or
not getting pulled into a bidding war or
639
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.039
party round or not etc. So
these are just some of the elements we
640
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.599
do. We do a bunch of
other stuff. We workflow toomations. We
641
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.920
do, you know, a lot
of stuff. I reached out to it.
642
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.719
I don't know the other side's like. The first it replied to me
643
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.760
is like that's the first, you
know, venture capital firm that you know
644
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.880
I've talked to that reached out to
me saying you popped up in our analytics.
645
00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:00.840
And okay, addressing the second part
of your question very, very quickly,
646
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.719
it's like it's clear that in early
stage that they is noisier, the
647
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:07.360
data is less complete and the data
in many cases is scrappy, but there
648
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.960
is still data. That's the part. You know. It's just more difficult.
649
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.920
It's more difficult to extracted, it's
more difficult to transform it, it's
650
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.519
more difficult to make it actionable and
make it into a signal. That's that's
651
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.639
the part that's more difficult. You
know, I really be huge hearing because
652
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:27.199
my initial reception was that it's thinking
about the efful analytics of the company,
653
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.400
which that also may be true,
but I think that what I appreciate you
654
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:32.119
because you talk about so much of
the show about how the early tages you're
655
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.239
investing in the team, because it
really that's all you got in a lot
656
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:39.119
of ways, and so you're actually
using data in this quantum of heart of
657
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:44.800
your fund to actually analyze the actual
teams itself in terms of what actually could
658
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.840
stay it out for you, which
think is amazing. And it's not just
659
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.000
teams, right. I mean think
of it as everything, markets and product
660
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:52.760
market fit, all sorts of thing. It's not just teams. Team is
661
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:55.960
an example that others also do.
And again, it's not just for deal
662
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.800
sourcing. We also do this for
due diligence with primary data, because you
663
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.440
then get primary data from from the
sturubs you talked to, right, you
664
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.599
get their own data portfolio management after
your invest so this is actually much broader
665
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.000
than just reaching out of people on
talent right to know, that's just one
666
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.639
very little thing of a really big
engie to your point. I never understood
667
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.199
that point that people making early sage. It's all about people. It's certainly
668
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:20.400
about people, but it's not all
about people. Okay, that's the point.
669
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.639
They all is the problem I have. It's about people. Need to
670
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:24.880
analyze people. You know, they
are they grits? Did they have the
671
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:29.000
grit to take this next level?
They have the skills tacking US level.
672
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.119
They have the ability to the next
two or three years without hiring anyone,
673
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:35.480
almost take it to a next level. I mean there's all of these elements
674
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.880
there which, like market assessment.
Again, I'm not talking about all VC
675
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:42.239
investors and all VC firms, but
there's may be seen in wrestors, many
676
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.480
VC froms like I know. There's
no market analysis. What you mean?
677
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.119
There's no market analysis. You can
do, of course, their market analysis.
678
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:49.280
You can do market analysa marketing is
there, right or no? No,
679
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:51.760
but their market creators? I mean, tell me, are there that
680
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.960
many market careers in the market right
now? There are used companies. No,
681
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:58.000
they just came into a market that
exists, that disrupted it and took
682
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.239
something. There maybe have been market
ex mention, but it took something out
683
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.719
of that market. In general.
There's no from the ground up market creation
684
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:07.400
right. So, because markets creation
is very difficult, there's a lot of
685
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:09.519
enabling pieces that needs to be done
to it. So so now you of
686
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:13.000
course you can do market analysis,
you can do outside in market analysis.
687
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.039
Where the where did these guys fit? Is Their head win or two win
688
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.639
for this market? And honestly,
you can have the best founders ever,
689
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.480
but if they're totally committed to a
market, if they're not willing to pivot,
690
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.800
if they don't have the agility to
go out to it and they are
691
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.599
in a really difficult market that will
never be really large or there's a lot
692
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.960
of competition, etc. It is
very difficult to win. I have never
693
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.280
seen market always wins. I always
say that markets win. So if the
694
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.480
market is crap, you're not going
to make it great. It's very in
695
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.400
common that you'll make it great.
Like you know, honestly now people would
696
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:45.599
always give you like Uber taxi market
was huge. Right, okay, so
697
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:47.960
when I say crap, it's actually
it was a great market to go into
698
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.639
because it was regulated and the players
that were in the market, we're not
699
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.639
very incentivized to make this a great
user experience. Right. So I would
700
00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:58.960
say that market was not crap.
That was a good market to go into.
701
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.519
It was stuff and there's regulation and
there's all the issues that had to
702
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.000
solve. But honestly, there's a
lot of elements so that make it a
703
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.880
great market. That doesn't make it
a crap. Mark. What's what?
704
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.280
Both is Varudy. Professionally one both
is variety. Personally, I'll give you
705
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:14.400
three. Professionally many, but I'd
go to the seminal one that I think
706
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.119
change in my life. It's when
I decided maybe I wasn't going to be
707
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:20.000
an engineer, I was going to
be a manager or do something around business,
708
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:23.159
which was the Post Capitalist Society by
Peter Darker Drucker, for those who
709
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:28.000
don't know, as a former journalist
who may now credit. He's now passed
710
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.639
away, but many now credit with
having in nted management science, you know,
711
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:36.480
giving science turn to management. Amazing, amazing guy. All the books
712
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.280
that I read from more incredible.
But the most capital society is the one
713
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:42.280
that sort of introduces this notion that
there's going to be information, rich in
714
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.320
information, poor people, that information
is going to be more valuable than money.
715
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.760
And in some ways we now see
that, right, know, capitalism
716
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:51.679
is actually linked to information, right. So it's like it's maybe it's not
717
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:53.880
post capitalist of society, but it's
a society that has really gone to the
718
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:58.400
technology side, in the information and
data. So that's one book on the
719
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.079
on the professional side, personal side, the how of happiness. And you
720
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:06.559
know, this was written by and
I don't want to slaughter her name,
721
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.599
but it's Sonya your Bol Messki.
She was a PC from STANDFORD. I
722
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.639
think she's now a professor. Maybe
it you see Riverside. I'm not mistaken.
723
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:16.719
Amazing Book. I dislike selfhelp books
a lot, but this is like
724
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:20.719
a really good self help book.
It's very fact based, there's a lot
725
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.039
of science behind it and I've used
it myself and you know, you know,
726
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.440
we all go through our all moments
in life and I read it at
727
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:29.079
the right moment of my life.
It was a fantastic book. And then
728
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.039
I would add one on the spiritual
side which which I read more recently,
729
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:36.559
which has been very interesting to inform
me a serve on the spiritual, semi
730
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.719
religious stuff, but it's interesting,
which is called modern physics ancient faith,
731
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:44.719
which is a really interesting turn on
what's happening with physics and how we're changing
732
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.280
our view of the world with physics, and then pull it all back to
733
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.800
spirituality, the existence of God and
all that stuff. It's a really interesting
734
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.239
book, even for those are not
religious. Is a very thought provoking book
735
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:57.000
because again, it's, you know, a lot of science, a lot
736
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.239
of interesting things in it. You
know, really headed to add these to
737
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.639
our book list and I appreciate the
reasons why. You're very original. I
738
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.159
don't think we've had anyone on the
show mentioned these books. This is brilliant.
739
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.400
You know. Thanks again for your
time. This is so much fun.
740
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:13.199
It's been fun. Thank you,
Mike, and there we have it.
741
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.039
It was such a pleasure chatting with
new do I hope you all enjoyed
742
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:19.119
that as much as I did.
If you enjoyed this episode, I love
743
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.119
it if you'd write a review on
the apple podcast. You're also welcome to
744
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.400
follow me your host, Mike,
on twitter at Mike Gelb, and also
745
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:47.679
follow for episode announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening, everyone,
