Aug. 4, 2022

Ollie Forsyth (Antler) - The New Creator Economy, Web3 and what social platforms are most vulnerable right now

Ollie Forsyth (Antler) - The New Creator Economy, Web3 and what social platforms are most vulnerable right now

Our guest today is Ollie Forsyth, Global Community Manager and Investor at Antler. The global venture capital firm enabling and investing in the world's most exceptional people from the earliest stages. Ollie recently published a piece called “The New Creator Economy: A guide on Web3 creator platforms”. We focus our conversation on his learnings while researching this paper and as you can imagine the future of the creator economy and Web3.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:16.559 Oh, hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, 2 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:19.800 Mike Gelb, and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital 3 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:25.160 and innovation in both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoying this content, 4 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:29.480 you could subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer VC DOT sub stack dot 5 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:33.159 com, to get each new episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your 6 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:38.399 inbox. Our guest today is Ali forsythe global community manager and investor at Handler 7 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:42.520 Antler, is a global venture capital firm enabling and investing in the world's most 8 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:47.920 exceptional people from the earliest stages. Recently, Ali published this piece called a 9 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:52.359 new creator economy, a guide to web three creator platforms. So we focus 10 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.640 our conversation on his learnings while researching this paper. And, as you can 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.479 imagine, what is the future of the Creator Economy and web three? There's 12 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:04.239 a lot of explorations here and a lot of thinking quite far into the future 13 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:11.400 in these two areas. So, without further ADO, here's Ali, Ali, 14 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.200 thank you so much for joining me here today. How are you? 15 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.640 Hey, Mike, I'm doing great. Thank you. How are you doing? 16 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:21.920 I'm doing great. I'm so excited for our chat today about the Creator 17 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:26.920 Economy and really really do love all the content that you've been pushing out and 18 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:32.400 just being really helpful in terms of navigating all of us throughout what's kind of 19 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.359 going on in this transformation that's happening. First of all, what got you 20 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:38.799 interested in the Creator Economy in the first place? Hey, no. Well, 21 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.000 first of all, thank you so much for having us. I remember 22 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.840 when we first met, so it's probably real or four years ago now, 23 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.400 I think, when you're just start saying the consumer Vic podcasts, and it's 24 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.640 been awesome seen you how far you guys have grown and, similar to you, 25 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.560 listening to people like yourself and being a further podcast kind of back in 26 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.599 the day where so many, you know, we would have, you know, 27 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:05.519 maybe a couple of thousand listeners or many of people listening to our podcasts, 28 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.479 but I became really frustrated. Why do podcasters not get paid to the 29 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:12.800 same as music ontit on the streaming platforms? And it was a couple of 30 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.240 years ago when I started kind of diving into the space. Back the time, 31 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:19.599 you know, unfortunately, we have this massive pandemic that came along wiped 32 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.280 out thousands and maybe, you know, even millions of jobs and people had 33 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:28.960 to turn to their creativity to make some form of means of income to replace 34 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:32.240 their employment and income. And you know, this kind of light bulb moments 35 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.960 struck me at two, three o'clock in the morning, a couple of evenings 36 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.039 and a couple of mornings where I really saw, you know, potentially this 37 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:43.039 is the future of work and it's called me really excited. Well, today 38 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.360 is called the Creator Economy, so it came from a personal pain point. 39 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:52.759 There's a reason why we'll get you interested in creating content around the creator economy, 40 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:54.560 which is kind of Meta also right, since you're also a creator, 41 00:02:55.159 --> 00:03:00.520 creating content around helping people understand, you know, all the different platforms that 42 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:04.800 are currently out there and really this movement that's been happening to, I guess, 43 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.159 change how creators are actually monetizing and making paid or actually, you know, 44 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:13.159 giving them an opportunity to monetize and get paid. Yeah, exactly, 45 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:17.479 and it's been so interesting just to see how fast and how much the landscape 46 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.680 has changed over the years. Um. You know, honestly, when we 47 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:27.439 started first exploring the creator economy, probably even from a personal perspective, two 48 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.360 to and a half years ago, nobody was paying attention to the space. 49 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:36.319 Nobody really cared and all of a sudden now is almost everyone wants to become 50 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.800 a creator. I think also fascinating. Also, it's just that, you 51 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:44.159 know, I think it is now twenty nine of American high squtions no longer 52 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.080 want to become bankers, doctor lawyers. They want to become creators. And 53 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.199 I really think that we're not even on chapter one yet. I'm just so 54 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.759 excited what's gonna Happen in this space in the next couple of years. So 55 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:57.879 I know. So, I know you wrote this piece, the ultimate guide 56 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:02.759 to the Creator economy. What do you think when you were thinking about, 57 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.879 you know, creating right in this piece, and I know you talked to, 58 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:11.199 you know, a lot of people that are quite well known, as 59 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:15.159 you know, quote unquote, thought leaders right in this space? What do 60 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:20.560 you think was misunderstood about the creator economy and how did this piece actually teach 61 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:25.639 you as well? Yeah, so, there are there's been a couple of 62 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:29.800 reports who have written clear things up. So our first creator economy reports was 63 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:34.040 published in one this was around the automate guide and becoming a creator. And 64 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.800 if I take you through the journey and your and your listeners. When we 65 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.480 first published the piece, it was very much around, you know, platforms 66 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.720 are in control. The platforms weren't really providing any autonomy to the creators. 67 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.000 The platforms were basically the monopolies, right. They would just tell the creators, 68 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.160 this is what's going to happen. You have no say. And when 69 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.959 we first published the piece, what was staggering, I think, was okay, 70 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:01.360 so many people want to BEC creators, but these platforms are making so 71 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.639 much wreaking money. Like their take, readers were insane. Anywhere from you 72 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:10.800 know, five to which, from a consumer and from, you know, 73 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.319 in investor adventure point of view, I avoid. For the eventual point of 74 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:16.680 view, okay, this is really interesting business models, but for the consumer 75 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:20.720 and the Creator, you know, platforms who were taking of the creators revenue. 76 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:25.639 I just thought personally, that was like completely unfair. So from the 77 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.360 first report, the biggest thing that I saw, and Malila and personally, 78 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.879 was okay, a lot of people want to become creators. There is so 79 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:38.120 much, you know, flexibility and opportunities to become a creator and just the 80 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.959 variety is so great. Right, anyone can become a creator tomorrow and then 81 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.240 kind of fast forward. Actually, it was only just around ten months. 82 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.560 Then it's kind of our CRYPTO and we're free, kind of, you know. 83 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.680 You know, era kind of blew up and with the biggest transition we 84 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:57.680 saw in our creator a report was around, focusing around ownership. So in 85 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:00.959 the space of kind of ten eleven months it's all this whole platform and you 86 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:06.079 know, I guess sectors shift from the platforms. Weren't control back in one 87 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.800 but where we are today, the platforms and no longer control is actually the 88 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.720 creators, by having kind of Crypto and web free at the forefront. The 89 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.439 creat the ones who are going to be turbocharging this new creator economy which we 90 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:21.439 call today. Is the new creator economy where all of the stakeholders in the 91 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:27.560 value change should be compensated based on their contributions towards platforms and communities. Can 92 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.560 you talk me a little bit about the intersection between, you know, web 93 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:34.079 three and crypto with the Creator Economy and why web three, you can be 94 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:40.439 so powerful in such an unlock for creators? So I think the biggest opportunity 95 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.560 for web fry and the Creator economy is for so long these creators have had 96 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.639 no say in the platforms about they operator on and to me, I think, 97 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:54.399 as as you just so unfair towards the creators. In order these platforms 98 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:59.000 to succeed, they have to have the creators as a superfans, the creators 99 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.519 as the superfans who, you know, want to stay on these platforms forever. 100 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.720 Right. But I think the second biggest element area is a lot of 101 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:10.639 the time around the creative economy. You know, all of the fans that 102 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:15.360 are being um actively targeted are actually originally from the creators themselves. So if 103 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:20.120 we take and the typically, you know, one side the marketplaces where the 104 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:25.439 creators, because of all of their work, they're typically on one platform, 105 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:30.519 where the creator basically has to send all of the create, all of their 106 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.079 fans to one platform, meaning those platforms are having, you know, basically 107 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.560 completely free marketing. So the biggest element that I think, you know, 108 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:43.480 crypto and we're pre unlocked with the creator economy is based on, you know, 109 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:48.000 the creators and their contributions towards the success of these platforms. They should 110 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:54.120 be compensators as well as their fans who have helped those platforms to succeed. 111 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.879 In simple terms, have a braces down to the audience in a in a 112 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.319 simple in a simple way guarded. And I mean, what are some of 113 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:07.480 the other elements where, you know, the economics Um within the Creator economy 114 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:11.199 are changing? I know you mentioned, you know, ownership, but maybe 115 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:16.279 what are some, you know, examples that creators are exploring in terms of 116 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.639 ways to actually being able to, you know, maybe monetize their audiences and 117 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.319 actually earn, you know, a fairly consistent revenue stream. To break it 118 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.279 down, the additional revenue streams and I think creators, as well as platforms, 119 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.960 can tap into. First of all, you know, now we're crypto 120 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.240 and we're pree. There are so many additional ways these creators can make a 121 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.080 source of income. They can be through enterities, they can be through social 122 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:46.840 tokens. So Social Tokens essentially providing some form of golden tickets or tickets Um 123 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.759 to your most engaged fans, which might be, you know, some which 124 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.399 might be worth something in the future. Rights. They have multiple different ways 125 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.279 of engaging with their fans. They can now do live streaming, versus back 126 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.600 a couple of years go it was really only through tax format. For the 127 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.960 platforms, where I kind of see this operating long term is, yes, 128 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.399 the takeaways will, you know, hopefully be reduced. So we see takeaways 129 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.879 being reduced from most likely down to kind of five, seven point five, 130 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.720 and the reason why they will be reduced so dramatically will be because these platforms 131 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.720 will have additional ways of monetizing their creators. The additional ways they will have 132 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:31.519 monetizing their creators will be payments number one. Second transaction fees, which will 133 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.120 be probably most likely actually for the super fans. They will have the takeaways 134 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.559 still. But I think it was even more interesting is if we take a 135 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.519 social tokens or N F T S, no matter how many times that n 136 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:48.279 m t is resold, the Creator will always have some form of royalty against 137 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.080 that and based on the underlying platform for that that N F T, as 138 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.799 an example, operates, the platform, most likely it will take some form 139 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.399 of additional take creator, if not of Ra small day. So are you 140 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.279 saying into of the relationship and the dynamic between the platform and the Creator, 141 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.080 platforms are then taking a smaller take create when it comes to the creator, 142 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.679 but the Creator then has more opportunity or can release maybe more products within the 143 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:16.159 platform in order to monetize which. So it's more like a smaller piece of 144 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.799 the pipe, but there's a lot more products that kind of go around so 145 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.440 the Plat so that's kind of the opportunity on the platform side. Is that 146 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.759 roughly right? Yeah, I think so. I mean that's official one. 147 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.080 I think we're going to start to see emotion the next couple of months, 148 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.320 in the next couple of years is, you know, as creators start to 149 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:37.399 operate and scale their companies, they need so many additional resources, services or 150 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.399 micro services allocated to them and I think it's going to become really interesting to 151 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.000 see how do these platforms start to offer all these microt services for the Creator 152 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.519 needs. For example, they need all the back end office support such as 153 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:52.559 like, you know, analytics, they need the payment support, they need 154 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.000 the legal support, they need the marketing support, and not all of this, 155 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.480 especially that the notable companies, all the rising companies, operates. So 156 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.960 I think it can be quite interesting to see how do these platforms start offer 157 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:11.279 all of these microt services or how they collaborate with existing startup providers who can 158 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:13.879 provide all these services but in one place. Is that's the biggest challenge. 159 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:20.559 Like how can the Creator be providers or using ten fifteen different services when they 160 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:22.679 have to go to multiple different platforms. It's just a really poor used experience. 161 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:24.559 So I think at some point, you know, we'll see a lot 162 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.799 of these platforms, I've started, to collaborate with one another or offer these 163 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.919 marcrot services in one place or, you know, yeah, and like have 164 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.039 it more like some of these platforms can actually go, you know, class 165 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:39.360 platform or can actually can you collaborate or communicate with a variety of different platforms, 166 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.039 like on the back office type of stuff, for example, exactly. 167 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.879 I think also to like what's misunderstood about the creator kind of a little bit 168 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:48.600 Um and we've definitely come round on the show. But you know, creators, 169 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.440 as you say, when it comes to employment, starting from your initial 170 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.279 comment about how Gen Z, you know, this is the number one job 171 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:58.519 that you know. Gen Z, you know, wants to be a creator. 172 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.279 Like it. Actually it is a real job, right, and these 173 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.919 are actually much more true. They should be maybe treated a bit more like 174 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:07.200 S and B s rather than what you think about a creator. I mean 175 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:11.360 it's it could be still a one person business, but it is still, 176 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:13.639 you know, a business. It's not and with the business, then there's 177 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.759 then it kind of opens it up into a variety, as you say, 178 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.799 like a lot of services that actually they need to they need to have in 179 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.879 order to, you know, function. Yeah, exactly. I think it's 180 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.600 going to be again right. I just think of this as like a founder. 181 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:35.600 How do you build the best product that reaches the most amount of creators 182 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.279 with the best experience? And you do that by just keeping things really simple. 183 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:45.080 I think initially by cultivating your fans as creators earlier on, you provide 184 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.679 one solution. That I think is, you know, potentially the most effective 185 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.320 and most impowerful with creators. Then as they start to use your services and 186 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.480 then that work effects starts become stronger, then you can start, you know, 187 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.440 Um, providing additional services. I think the biggest platforms due too early 188 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:07.279 on is they think of themselves as creator experts or they're not created themselves right. 189 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.159 They offer too many services. Is Very confusing to the creator what they 190 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:15.480 actually do. So one trip, and I'm sure you know we can provide 191 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.840 multiple from each other for other conversation is, if you're starting a company, 192 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.399 just make it really easy and simple for the creators to unsound what you're actually 193 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.399 providing. I just provide one service. Keep it really simple. What traditional? 194 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:31.799 Maybe web to you know, social platform is most vulnerable right now. 195 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.960 Do you think, and which is well to on the website, it might 196 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.480 be in the best position to actually succeed in this new as you say, 197 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.720 we're still in the very early stages of the of the Creator economy, but 198 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.679 kind of, in your mind, in the best position to succeed moving forward? 199 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.759 I actually loved standing table to U Fus. What do you think is 200 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.960 the most vulnerable and what do you think as the master of Gen Ah? 201 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.799 That's a really good question. We can do it. I mean, I 202 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:01.879 actually think one of the most vulnerable, I actually think it's music. We're 203 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.960 starting to see quite a few music artists moving away from the lights of spotify 204 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.120 to go solo and go direct to consumer, so around kind of the ownership 205 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.200 economy right and the reason why I think music is in kind of the most 206 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:24.840 vulnerable space is there's seven million music artists on spotify. Only zero point two 207 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:28.600 of those make over fifty dollars a year in revenue, which is just crazy. 208 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.480 And I think when we when we look at that, so you were 209 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.759 saying, only a handful, a couple of thousand of those act you make 210 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.440 over fifty dollars in revenue year. If you were saying there are seven million 211 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.440 music artists on spotify and on Easero, point to center, those make over 212 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.080 fifty dollars in revenue year, I think there's something potentially very fundamentally wrong in 213 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.960 the music world. What do you think? I actually somewhat disagree with you, 214 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.759 because you also have to think in when it comes to music artists. 215 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:58.879 You have to think about how they actually normally traditionally monetize. Right, traditionally, 216 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:03.080 when it came to C D S, that wasn't really money going towards 217 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.320 the artists. That certainly, if you, you know, are a top 218 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.720 artist, you definitely made a lot of money from record sales, but primarily 219 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.440 you made a lot of money through touring in concerts. And so I think 220 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.080 when you're thinking about, you know, a salary or income for a musician, 221 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.960 if you look at from the total landscape, if touring in concerts, 222 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.480 which I know that you know. This is also the past. You know, 223 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.080 two three years has been very, very difficult for musicians for um in 224 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.159 touring in concerts. But as the world slowly opens up and as touring and 225 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:37.399 concerts get back to normal, musicians like I actually think the role of putting 226 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.480 music online it's not so much actually to monetize it, it's more so to 227 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.799 get it out there to actually people can actually hear it and actually build up 228 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.039 maybe the relationship with you on the musician side. Maybe that actually then you 229 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.960 can maybe use some creator economy tools to develop a deep relationship on the community 230 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.360 side of things, maybe you actually then are able to monetize your your community 231 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.360 in some fashion with maybe social tokens or which we can certainly talk about. 232 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.000 But I do think that's still, in a funny way, the music industry. 233 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.559 Instead of record labels, you're kind of just not the REC labels obviously 234 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.679 still exist, but you're able to kind of go direct by releasing online via 235 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:18.360 streaming. But still your main income source and revenue is if it is touring, 236 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:21.440 then you actually might not be again, as long as the world open 237 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:23.759 backs up, you might be actually okay moving forward. I do think, 238 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.240 though, like the podcaster, for example, right, does the podcaster tour? 239 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:32.120 Not Very likely, right not. It's not a very common thing to 240 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:36.559 happen on a podcasting side of things like that. Maybe they're a bit more 241 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.559 vulnerable on that side. If that is you know, the main mechanism to 242 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.519 actually monetize. But that's why I think that what's also interesting is why, 243 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.639 on the streaming side of things, for podcasting, like this is why I 244 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.840 think, you know, spotify, I think, is in great position and 245 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:55.200 what they're doing or able to, you know, become go exclusive with podcasters. 246 00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:00.759 They can't really go exclusive with big recording artists because the actual recording artists 247 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:06.039 they want their songs to be played and on all platforms anywhere. It's really 248 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:07.559 increased the spread. This is this is like you know, what I what 249 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.720 I said also kind of I want to attribute this to to Holly Hohm mad 250 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.000 when he came on the show, he also talked about this as well. 251 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:18.319 So I do think that there's like some but from a podcaster's perspective, like, 252 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.000 since it is your kind of only form of income typically is doing podcasts 253 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.319 and like spotify, ideal of being exclusive as spotify actually seems a bit more 254 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:27.839 attractive. So that's what I think. In terms of the music side. 255 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.559 I also think in terms of what like on the platform type of thing, 256 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.720 with in the best position to succeed, I think spotify is pretty well positioned 257 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:38.200 with their you know, kind of becoming very kind of creator friendly or or 258 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:41.440 wanting to be, or, you know, kind of going inclusive with creators 259 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.359 and kind of rewarding creators with some of these big deals that we've been seeing. 260 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.359 I also think Tiktok as well with their Creator Fund, and really I 261 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.200 think trying to be a bit more for thinking around, and I love your 262 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.960 thoughts abolling at this, a bit more for thinking around how to actually collaborate 263 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:00.880 with the artists. I remember hearing like interviews of people that worked in Tiktok 264 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.279 and they would actually like tell creators like this is how you can be successful 265 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.200 on our platform, which I haven't seen that in like in like facebook or 266 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.880 instagram. I haven't really seen that from Youtube. So I think that actually 267 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.759 is really cool that it's much more like it seems, at least on the 268 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.240 surface, and again, probably only for like, you know, one percent 269 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.160 of people, but it's much more of like a collaborative effort, it seems, 270 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.359 for more of like talent scouting in a funny way, right, and 271 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.599 wanting to actually improve. Um. So those are those are my thoughts. 272 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:32.759 Would love to hear yours. Yeah, that's actually on the podcasting front. 273 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.480 Thus, uh, you're right. I agree. I think is is really 274 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:41.960 interesting. Tactics. spotify a chasing Um and now that I think they're starting 275 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.599 to allow podcasts charging and subscriptions and at some point they will probably be in 276 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.640 the haunts. Ways podcasts can interact with their fans, which today's is a 277 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:55.119 massive challenge rights. If you have a t hundred thousand fans, you have 278 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.480 no data on those Um listeners. You can't interact to them, you can't 279 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:03.279 comment in the room like within with twister spaces. So I mean this whole 280 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.200 you know, work tooth space for social it's gonna be really interesting to see 281 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.799 how it unfolds for the creative funds. I think the creative funds is really 282 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.519 interesting. I think it's going to become more interesting to see just long term, 283 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.160 how do they actually operate and, you know, will these creative funds 284 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:22.279 start saying more publicly, you know, how can you actually earn an income 285 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.759 through the creative funds? That it's been it's been a bit vague how much 286 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.640 creators can actually earn from these creative funds. There are a couple of numbers 287 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.720 kind of flying around and once that kind of money runs out from the creative 288 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.240 funds. What happens back? Do they go and raise more creative funds in 289 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:38.920 the future? And what does that look like from an impact point of view? 290 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.680 Right, you know, our creators learning more just down to the funds 291 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.880 Um whereas that cash coming from the creative funds themselves. Um, you know, 292 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.400 what do their network effects start to look like? Or do the cycle 293 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.960 for we call it the creator cycle and think of it like a job into 294 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.000 you. How long do you creators spend create? They can do this for 295 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.960 five years, six years, ten years. And what? What impact does 296 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.599 created funds have on top of that? But I think it's massive. Like 297 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.559 interest. Just announced the Creator Funds. Techtok as you go, there were 298 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.359 in snapchat and and instagrams as well as tech talk. Let's just see what 299 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.480 happens. Yeah, yeah, exactly, early days. Early days. What 300 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.839 kind of see what happens? I mean, obviously the web two platforms are 301 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:30.119 definitely trying to maybe take a bit more of a creator economy approach in terms 302 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:34.160 of what that really means of ownership for the creators or collaboration at least with 303 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.400 the creators, on what that you know, how they could actually work in 304 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.480 partner together instead of just saying hey, here's our platform, or you've got 305 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.759 bigger platform, great, but you know, we're not gonna we're not gonna 306 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.519 do anything for you. This is still obviously the early days of all this 307 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.680 with, you know, new developing platforms and the Creator economy. It's interesting 308 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.599 like one of the big takeaways from your piece and definitely a big theme in 309 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.680 the Creator Economy, is having these very kind of much deeper conversations, maybe 310 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:06.279 micro communities, and kind of going a lot deeper rather than kind of spreading 311 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.039 wide, and I think that that's really what in the web two era that 312 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.599 we've, you know, seen. Right I'm kind of curious, since facebook 313 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.279 and instagram largely were like the face of that, right, how they're able 314 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:22.000 to adapt in that sort of way. And we don't really know what Meta 315 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.720 is per se yet. Rightly, obviously it's VR interactive, or at least 316 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.680 that's the hope, but I'm very curious to see how facebook will, you 317 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.240 know, respond and maybe a macro level to the creator economy like in the 318 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.440 years moving forward. I mean it's pretty interesting hearing your PAS and when I 319 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.480 was thinking about it, you know, I think for any platform they have 320 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:47.480 is for now, with web prey and kind of like ownership. Economy is 321 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:52.279 about trust and I think it's about you know, how do you enable your 322 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:59.799 creators today on your platform for years and the way they say on platform for 323 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.079 you is, I think, in really simple terms, is you provide discoverability, 324 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:08.000 you provide distribution, meaning you essentially, you know, simple terms, 325 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:14.559 provide, hopely millions of fans to your customers, who the creators, and 326 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.319 you just be fair in a financial stance. Like back to some of the 327 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.279 earlier points, one of the biggest frustrations I don't agree with in the Creator 328 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.640 economy is how can a platform take of a Creator's earnings? I just think 329 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:32.960 that's fundamentally unfair. Like you, as a creator, if you are streaming 330 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.000 on a web two platform, and I say web two because typically web pre 331 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.240 take creates a much lower I think you would be pretty pissed of if you 332 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:44.759 where, you know, having to give away fifty percent of your revenue to 333 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:49.200 a platform that's a not providing distribution, not providing discoverability. So I think 334 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:55.640 it's simple terms, for the creator economy to succeed and for a web two 335 00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:00.640 platform to transition to where pre platform. You provide discoverably distribution and it will 336 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:07.119 take grades on light that Mafia. They are a fair UH ownership economy. 337 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:12.119 Way Whey is maybe five to seven people will take. With all this being 338 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:17.119 said, something that I just was thinking about a little earlier was where does 339 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:21.240 email what's like the role of email moving forward, because when you talk about 340 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.559 ownership, right, like that is the closest thing we have for owning. 341 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.400 Obviously, I don't love to say, you know, owning a customer, 342 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:32.039 but like owning a customer right, like owning, like that kind of relationship 343 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.119 in turns of Director Consumer Right. We talked a lot about like DDC brands 344 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.640 on the show, for example, and you know, one of the reason 345 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.880 why the benefits of the going to to see is that you can actually do 346 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.880 email marketing right. And I if, for example, the platform, you 347 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.920 really do that trust and ownership and that is there and you're monetizing through the 348 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.359 platform, which like we say that, you know, you don't own any 349 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.200 of your kind of content or obviously you can control the algorithms or whatnot, 350 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.440 so you always need to shift to email eventually. What do you see that 351 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.279 on like the role of email moving forward? If you did have these platforms 352 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.160 that had a lot, you know, there's a lot more trust and you 353 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.440 maybe had did have more ownership already on the platforms with your customers. Another 354 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.359 great question. Maybe we should write a piece around that. What is the 355 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.480 future email? That like? I think there are two sides rights. I 356 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.519 think it comes down to, first of all, who is what's the target, 357 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.160 the audience of the Creator? If they are young, savvy millennial Gen 358 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:33.400 zs who just want something very quick and easy to communicate with, I don't 359 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.839 think email is going to probably exist because they didn't care and they're lazy and 360 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.359 uh, you know, we're one of them, one but in one of 361 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.559 them, and you want something, you know, quick and easy to navigate. 362 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.160 Right. What email will probably still remain is around, you know, 363 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.119 kind of more web to focus platforms, if it's around e commerce, like 364 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.359 you mentioned, right, deep c right, that I think visual still has 365 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.440 a place, but that I just don't think that's particularly scared of. What 366 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:06.039 do you think? I'm not sure either. I mean I on one hand, 367 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:11.279 it's really hard for me to think that email doesn't have a place just 368 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.920 because it's kind of all we know. Meaning when you think about, you 369 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.759 know, ownership, when you talk about the ownership economy, like there's nothing 370 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.440 that has been developed that's more ownership driven than email. Is that fair to 371 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.440 say when it comes to that whole relationship with the customer? I mean maybe 372 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.559 you could say SMS, but people don't want to be receiving text messages all 373 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.799 the time or, you know, once today to you know, communicate the 374 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.559 creator or you know, maybe there is, you know, a small percentage, 375 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.599 but I still think that that email is kind of like dynam it there 376 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.599 it's kind of hard to imagine what you don't know and what you're not used 377 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.079 to. I'm not sure either. I mean I still find it hard on 378 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:52.519 the kind of customer ownership potential to replace email, but then again, I 379 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.720 think that it's also maybe like the context, as you say, of what 380 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:57.519 you're trying to accomplish or what you're trying to achieve. With all this being 381 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:02.720 said, what do you think is like the next big distribution channel or type 382 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.240 of creator that's going to rise the popularity? We obviously have the video creator, 383 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:11.200 we have a podcaster, we have newsletters. What do you think, 384 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.200 when you're thinking about too like different types of you know, maybe creator profiles 385 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.680 on the distribution side, is there one that kind of comes to mind that 386 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:25.079 you're quite excited about? Actually, think one of the biggest opportunities for creators, 387 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:29.480 and probably the one that's not really talked about much, is the typical 388 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.799 creator who's just providing, you know, random information every day, like this 389 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:36.440 is why we got to take toll. We go to tick tole to be 390 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:38.880 entertained and learn a bunch of new stuff. Right. Those are the craziest, 391 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.559 I think, actually going to rise to fame. As followed the crazy 392 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.400 the other day, he started like twenty one days ago. I can remember 393 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:51.079 his name, but just by cooking really interesting like cuisines from all around the 394 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.720 world, based in Australia, he now has two million followers. There's this 395 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:59.039 really interesting creator called Dylan May, where he saw that just making funny, 396 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.960 high screaming videos on tiktok. He now has his own ice cream parlor in 397 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.799 New York. So I think the new interesting creators that will come to fame 398 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.200 will be called the new creators, becoming the new types of world disneys, 399 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.880 meaning you can start becoming a creator and you eventually start your own brand. 400 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.519 You become this ice cream guy, you started an ice cream company, you 401 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:25.440 may start, you know, providing travel Tis, where to go traveling. 402 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.119 You then maybe start providing, you know, travel holidays, and maybe you're 403 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.839 there as a creator going along those holidays and actually their lives in the action. 404 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.640 So I think, to answer your question, the new types of creators 405 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.279 will emerge will be, you know, your lifestyle creators. WHO. Yeah, 406 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:48.839 I think lifestyle creators. Ali. What is one book that's inspired you 407 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.119 personally? In one book that's inspired you professionally? One Book has inspired me 408 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.640 personally. It was actually, uh, it's back probably when I was seven, 409 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:03.039 eight, maybe nine, thirteen, thirteen years ago, like probably everyone 410 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:04.160 says. There's quite a few people say this, but it was just Richard 411 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.920 Branson's book. Like he left school when he was sixteen, let school and 412 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.799 I was sixteen. are going to read them right until I was like fourteen 413 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.079 or fifteen, and he was also overright to Lectic, and that kind of 414 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.880 really got me into entrepreneurship, like right at the early beginning, right like 415 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.880 saw the company when I was thirteen and did a bunch of other things, 416 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.559 and it just told me to like really graft, like, even if you 417 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.559 can't read them, write. And you were sitting in a classroom and an 418 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.279 exam and reading a blank piece of paper when you're fourteen, fifteen, like 419 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.680 it doesn't matter. So that Dad taught me like a lot. Just graft 420 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.000 and hustle like very early on from a I guess that's like both professional and 421 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.480 personal right. But maybe another one to Addam was you've got Phil Nike's Book 422 00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:49.480 On. You know the Nike Story. I think that's just incredible. Like 423 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.799 you know how somebody you know so early. I think again, he was 424 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.680 like five. How he built one of the largest companies in the world today, 425 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:00.759 but there were quite a few. Have a more podcast. Listen to 426 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.960 podcasts like you guys. Appreciate that. I'll we appreciate that. My final 427 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.519 question for you, Ali is, what's your biggest piece of advice that you've 428 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:14.039 had for founders? Take your time. We meet thousands of founders every year 429 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:19.880 and they think it's gonna turn into gold overnight. It takes an incredibly long 430 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.160 time and there are a covered bit of like now, because we provide two 431 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:27.000 founders, and you know also that founders provide us right. It takes a 432 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:32.039 long time, so take your time and I think really learned the art of, 433 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.599 Yes, project management and all of us, but just time. Spend 434 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.799 time building, but also just going to spend time hanging out with your family 435 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.960 of friends and learn to relax. It's not all about working nine twenty hours 436 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.759 a day, so enjoy the ride and if it doesn't work out, don't 437 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.880 worry. compire stronger next time. And that doesn't work out, try again. 438 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:55.559 And meets a bunch of really cool people along the way, and I 439 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.680 think that the best founders are always the ones who will get in the front 440 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:04.039 seeds of an Uber versus the bankers who was hit in the back. So 441 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:10.799 be humble and just stay yourself. I love that. That's great, Ali, 442 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:12.000 this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. 443 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:17.279 Thank you so much, and if anybody has not subscribed to the consumer 444 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:19.279 VC podcast, had and there we have it. It was such a pleasure 445 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.960 of channing with Ali. I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I 446 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.000 did. How you'd recommend follow him on twitter at Ali Forsyth. If you 447 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.880 enjoyed this episode, I love it if you write a review on the apple 448 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.240 podcast. You're also welcome to follow me, your host, Mike, on 449 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.519 twitter at Mike Gelb, and also follow for episode announcements. At consumer VC. 450 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:59.000 Thanks for listening to everyone