June 23, 2022

Patrick Chun (Juxtapose) - What is an inception stage investment firm, why it’s less risky than modern venture capital, how he recruits CEOs to lead each business he incubates

Patrick Chun (Juxtapose) - What is an inception stage investment firm, why it’s less risky than modern venture capital, how he recruits CEOs to lead each business he incubates

Our guest today is Patrick Chun, Founding Partner of Juxtapose. Juxtapose is an inception stage investment firm. Some of the companies that they founded include Tend, Care/of, and Dayforward. Their process for how they build companies is pretty unique for this show. We discuss their model, why their model is less risky than traditional venture capital, and his process for finding the right CEO to lead each business. Without further ado, here’s Patrick.

  1. What is Juxtapose? What was the initial insight or prior experience that influenced your decision to found it? Why did you choose to found it?
  2. Why do you believe your model is less risky than traditional venture capital?
    1. You are incubating
    2. When you say do the work, what do you mean?
  3. What’s your process identifying an observation
    1. True verifiable fact in the world
    2. When your
    3. Lots of observation
    4. How many observations do you have a week
    5. Insights you can pull off of an observation
    6. On-demand dispatch
    7. Track 500-1000 observations
      1. Talk about 50-100
  4. What’s your process for building businesses step by step – from the ideation stage to creating beta products / product is in market?
  5. Recycled and reentered the funnel
  6. 4-6 months
  7. How do you think about timing as well?
  8. Obsolete assumption
    1. You can never have an investor home
  9. When do you bring on an experienced CEO and team? How do you think about that process?
    1. What are qualities you’d like to see from the CEO?
    2. From 0 to 10 at what stage is the company in when you bring on a CEO?
    3. How do you source “Michael Jordan” CEOs? If they are the Michael Jordan’s, what typically get them excited to join the company - since I’m sure they get alot of offers to lead different teams?
      1. Can it be difficult to attract since these companies are still small?
    4. How do you hire the team?
  10. Once a company has a CEO, how do you think about the role of Juxtapose moving forward with the business?
    1. The best supporter of the company from 0-200 people
    2. Is the shift from operator to more of board member/observer type role?
  11. Do you ever get the itch to become a CEO of one of your companies?
  12. How do you approach hiring for your studio? Are you looking for people who have operational experience or more investor experience since it seems the studio model is at the intersection of both?
  13. What are the challenges with the studio model? What can get overlooked?
  14. What are the shortcomings of the venture studio model or what do studios tend to struggle with?
  15. Was there a prior experience that led you to want to build a different type of firm than traditional VC?
  16. What’s one thing you would change about venture capital?
  17. What’s one book that inspired you personally and one book that inspired you professionally?
    1. 4,000 weeks Oliver Burkman
  18. What’s the best piece of advice for founders?
    1. What is it that people will see in the market and if you’re right
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.920 Hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, Michael, 2 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.960 and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital and innovation in 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:25.480 both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoying this content, you could 4 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.679 subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer VC DOT substackcom, to get each new 5 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.960 episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your inbox. Our guest today is 6 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:40.280 Patrick Chut found a partner of Ju stappose. Ju Suppose is an inception stage 7 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:45.039 investment firm. Some of the companies they found it include ten care of and 8 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:49.200 Dave faullward. Their process for how they build companies is pretty unique, I'll 9 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.960 be honest. We discussed their model, why their model is less risky than 10 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:57.840 traditional VC and is process for finding the right CEO to lead each business. 11 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:11.959 Without further ADO, here's Patrick. Patrick, thank you so much for joining 12 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.760 me today. How are you? I'm doing good. Thanks for having me, 13 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:21.680 Mike. It's an absolute pleasure talk to me about why you started and 14 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:26.159 what is Ju suppose and what was the initial insight that led you to to 15 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.879 found it? Yeah, so just suppose we're a bit of a unique investment 16 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.799 or that in some ways Harkens back to old school venture capital. And the 17 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.879 real kind of big differentiator, if I was going to summarize it at a 18 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:41.519 bar ower drinks, is we're rather than traditionally investing in companies where someone comes 19 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:45.680 and pitches you an idea, will spend years doing work in a space and 20 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.959 then go and try to find a world class athlete to partner with the start 21 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.120 that company. And so a couple of things that makes make our firm strategy 22 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.920 different one. Rather than doing a lot of things, which is the traditional 23 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.680 venture model, we actually do very few and so it forces a discipline on 24 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.760 us to really get those things right, find the best absolute partners for them 25 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:08.919 and really do those things very well. And then the second thing is because 26 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:14.639 we take such wings and because our model is usually premised on finding an opportunity 27 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:20.280 of very complex space, we partner with really, really experienced senior operators and 28 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.039 that's a really, really important part of our model. And so you know, 29 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.000 I think to your question on the insight, I've spent now over twenty 30 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.159 years in the venture world and a lot of what I saw and venture was 31 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.159 not a good fit for me in the sense that you had to spend a 32 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.120 lot of time looking a lot of things and say no to a lot of 33 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.280 things to find the things that you wanted to do. And I think what's 34 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:44.719 really unique about our model is it actually gives you the time and the space 35 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:47.719 to go really, really, really deep and you could almost separate the work 36 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:52.400 that you do, diligence in an opportunity, from diligence in the person, 37 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.879 and then you could actually combine the best of both worlds to start something, 38 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:59.080 something that you want. I really appreciate you sharing. I know you heard 39 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.520 it off by saying exappos is what, maybe what traditional venture capital used to 40 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.800 be. Do you mind explaining what it was like, maybe when venture capital 41 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.479 first came up, as as is separate and maybe it was more formalizing to 42 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:15.120 its own asset class and as well as what you think venture capital has become? 43 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:17.360 Sure, well, we could probably have a longer conversation on the actual 44 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:21.879 history of venture capital and how it started. But but you know, I 45 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.400 think if you think about, you know, in terms of my comment, 46 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:29.800 venture capital even twenty years ago, forget seven years ago, but twenty years 47 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:36.159 ago was a lot more. I think of a craft investment asset class where 48 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.199 you know the the venture capitalists themselves. You know, develop theeces had to 49 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:44.039 go and search the world often because, you know, especially pre Internet days, 50 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:46.960 where you didn't have information at your fingertips, everyone wasn't tweeting at you, 51 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:51.080 you had to go and actually find the people or the spaces that you 52 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.400 thought were interesting and often had to construct what you thought the opportunity look like. 53 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.800 Right. So you know, if you had a very strong thesis in 54 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.759 the space, you would go and find really interesting entrepreneur operators. They would 55 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.439 probably help you hold the insight maybe, and then you would take that insight, 56 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:08.360 work with that operator and go build something. And and I think a 57 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.680 lot of great venture funds actually got built because they were able to help construct 58 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.439 those those deals. And there's still other mentor funds like sorer Hill that do 59 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.959 this as a core part of what they do. I think, and again 60 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.120 over the last ten, fifteen years, definitely over the last three to five 61 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.199 years, in the world has just become a place where information is a lot 62 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:29.399 more available and if you're an entrepreneur, you're screaming everyone that you're an entrepreneur, 63 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.480 if you're invent street, screaming everyone that you're an investor. And so 64 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:38.000 I think the function of the venture capitalist in the traditional sense has evolved a 65 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.560 bit, right, and so you know, there's a lot of information that 66 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.399 you have to process, there's a lot of inbound that you have to deal 67 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.439 with and in some ways what used to be hard was finding that really unique 68 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.000 thing, finding that unique person. No one else was getting to them, 69 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.839 convincing them, telling them what venture capital was and then giving them the capital 70 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.360 and support to do it. Now it's a bit more you kind of know 71 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:00.800 what could companies are out there. You kind of know there's a lot of 72 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.519 information out there and you kind of have to do some sifting, but you 73 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:06.920 have to do a lot of selling to and so that's kind of what I 74 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.800 meant. I feel like we're kind of a throwback in that we construct everything. 75 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.920 We don't do that many things. We spend a lot of time really 76 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.279 kind of hands on helping to build the deals that we get into. Got 77 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.120 It. So what I kind of understand from this is what I think about 78 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:25.759 traditional venture capital. Maybe it's a bit more top down oriented or approach, 79 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:29.879 where might be more specialized in certain categories, right, and you look at 80 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.120 what are the opportunities in the categories and maybe go and maybe chase those opportunities 81 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:40.480 there were. Right now, since founders are pretty where venture capital is and 82 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:46.360 obviously Vic's want to attract the best founders, it's a bit more maybe bottoms 83 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.439 up in a funny way, whereas Hey, you know, entrepreneur, what 84 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.680 is the actual insight here that you're doing? And it's a bit less, 85 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.560 maybe thematic, as it used to be. If as for to say, 86 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:00.120 yeah, I think that that's one important vector of differentiation. Right. That 87 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.399 the kind of time I like that top down, bottoms up differential point. 88 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:06.639 I would just add that the second piece, I think even more old school 89 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:10.720 venture. There was a lot of the match making. You know somebody, 90 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.040 you build this strong pieces, you think this person would be perfect, come 91 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.399 here, let me help do this together, and that kind of match making. 92 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:21.240 In the frenetic world now where deals happen in two days and and not, 93 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.399 you know, and we have all these efficient processes where this we're interesting 94 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:29.439 companies get surfaced and get accelerated. It's a different sport. Yeah, now, 95 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.519 that makes sense. How do you think about and why? You know, 96 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:40.160 your model, you believe is maybe less risky than maybe currents venture capital. 97 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.360 Yeah, I actually think it's quite simple. We do more work and 98 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.000 we say more, we say no to more things, and then if, 99 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.439 for the few things that we say yes on, we set a really more 100 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.040 high for the for the partner that we can hand select to work with to 101 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:58.079 build that thing. And so I think, you know, it's kind of 102 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:00.920 do a lot of work, say no to more, say yes to less, 103 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.000 and then, for the thing that you're going to work on, make 104 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.439 sure that your bar for the partner that you're working with is very, very 105 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:10.240 high. If you do all of that, you probably will take risk out 106 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:13.000 of the system, like I don't think you know. So, said another 107 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:17.279 way, I don't think that we have some sort of arbitrage against traditional ventry 108 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.639 capital. Like we don't. We can't change the market to make the market 109 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.519 less risky. What we can say is, for the two things that we 110 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.360 do every year, we're going to make sure that the market is large. 111 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.759 We're going to make sure we've spent two to three years doing work, we're 112 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.959 going to build tends of prototypes and talk to hundreds of customers. We're going 113 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.439 to then validate that, you know, from four or five different angles. 114 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.079 And after we do all of that and know exactly what the sport is that 115 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.800 we want to play. Let's code. Then write out the kind of dream 116 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.079 that the dream JD, the dream kind of profile of the ask that you 117 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.079 want, and then be willing to take twelve to eighteen months, twenty four 118 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.800 months, to find that perfect person like and if you do that, I 119 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:57.319 think the drawback to the model is, and there's a question then, is 120 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.959 okay, well, if you could do venture capital, that's risky. What 121 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:03.040 are the what's the drawback? The real tradeoff is we just can't do as 122 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.639 much. Failure costs a lot more, and so if we're going to invest 123 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.079 the resources we do and that kind of model, we just have to make 124 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.399 more certain that the thing that we do works. Got To make more certain 125 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.720 that the person we're working with is the absolute right partner and we're going to 126 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:18.920 have to invest a lot in that thing to make sure it successful. So 127 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.560 when you say do the work, this is incubing a company, and you 128 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:28.839 spend like one or two years validating that this could actually be, you know, 129 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:35.399 a large company and maybe a category defining company in some capacity, and 130 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.559 then you actually go out and you pick who is the CEO that you want 131 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.039 to be to partner with for this company, is that is that roughly right 132 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.600 in terms of like the early stages. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 133 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.639 right. So we call that process concept development and I think to your point, 134 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.679 I think the way you describe it is quite quite nice because it juxtaposes 135 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.480 a lot of different, sometimes non overlapping, functions together in terms of how 136 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.480 we do it. But yes, will we usually start with, if what 137 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.639 we describe as an observation, it's usually some sort of observation of the world. 138 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.200 It's a true fact, and then we will do a lot of commercial 139 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.840 business, venture capital, private Acre style research on that observation and will also 140 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.679 do, you know, kind of the creative aspects of the user research to 141 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.799 design, the prototyping, the ethnographic research to really see both sides of that 142 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.399 picture. And after we do all of that work and we validate that, 143 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.840 there is a really large opportunity if we pursue this for five to ten years, 144 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.600 there is a very interesting mirror and opportunity over the one or two years 145 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.039 that we could diligence even more, even more closely, because it's a lot 146 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.559 easier to understand what's going to happen a month from now, a year from 147 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.679 now, two years from now, that it is ten and once you have 148 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:45.840 all of that and you kind of have an idea, okay, what would 149 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.679 be the absolute perfect person and people to bring on to really attack that opportunity? 150 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:52.799 That's then when we say, okay, let's go and do this. 151 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.960 Got It. That's really, really interesting. I mean, so start from 152 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.120 the very, very beginning. What is even the process in identifying like an 153 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.240 observation, even if you have been in examples of observation that maybe didn't make 154 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.679 it to me be like the next stage, for example, and how do 155 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.600 you had to define like the different kind of stages in order to eventually for 156 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:20.240 this observation and idea eventually to become a company? Yeah, it's so to 157 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.120 start, how we define an observation? Is a true, verifiable fact in 158 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480 the world, and I start with that definition because I think people are often 159 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.279 asked like, okay, you guys, wow, you guys come up with 160 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:33.320 ideas like that sounds so amazing, like tell me how you come up with 161 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.519 an idea and say, okay, well, let's break this down to the 162 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.799 component facts. Like what we actually start with is pretty is actually quite simple. 163 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.440 It's literally something that you can observe. It is a fact and if 164 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.200 we all agree that that fact is a fact. That's a good starting point 165 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.759 for us to talk about. If this is opportunity there, right and so 166 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.080 and then then I'll get to a couple of examples, but I would say 167 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:56.559 at the observation level it could be anything from I'm talking with Mike and he's 168 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.919 saying, Hey, have you seen this really cool thing? This thing is 169 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.159 blowing up. Consumers love it, like Oh, that's interesting. Okay, 170 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.559 well, let's get to like what is the you know, what is observable 171 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:07.919 fact there? That could be the inside for something. It could be a 172 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:13.320 conversation with, you know, with a spouse or the even a friend, 173 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.519 and they're just telling you about a big pain point they have. That probably, 174 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:18.639 by the way, if a friend tells you, you know what I 175 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.159 really think, the roads in New York City suck and there's a lot of 176 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:24.960 potholes in New York City. I don't know how useful of a fact that 177 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.559 is, but that is a that's an observation. We could put that in 178 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.519 our observation. What that observation could kind of filter out to a lot of 179 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.519 different things, and so we usually start there, which is let's find observa 180 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:37.360 facts in the world that could come from reading, talking with people, research 181 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.840 we're doing, companies that we're seeing in the market, and let's distill what 182 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.559 it actually is that we're observing from that observation. We will then go and 183 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.080 say, okay, what are insights that you can you can pull out from 184 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:54.000 that observation and then maybe going to your question. For an example, this 185 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.360 is something that is an observation that was true around two thousand and ten, 186 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.440 two thousand and eleven, the I phone pops up, it becomes this device. 187 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.360 Everyone knows. It's just, you know, computer in your pocket. 188 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.720 But the real interesting observation at the time that I think can sparked a lot 189 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:15.159 of really cool companies is for the first time ever you have a GPS always 190 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:20.120 on device available in every car where someone has a summart phone right. And 191 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.879 if you step back and you think about it like that is actually a pretty 192 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.840 interesting observation. Like before you couldn't do anything that looked anything like taxi dispatch 193 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:33.120 because no one had people had to have taxi dispatch machines in their car for 194 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:35.399 you to communicate with them, or you had to call them on their cell 195 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.600 phones. Now suddenly you have this device that is always on and has GPS 196 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.639 beeping every moment. And so what does that mean? Well, you could 197 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.440 see that that observation will tell you. Well, there's going to be a 198 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.240 lot of radio interference in the car. Can I build something around that? 199 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.399 Now we have all this information flowing. We construct to track traffic flow. 200 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.679 Well, what can we do for that? Or you know, probably like 201 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.279 you know, backing into maybe something like an Uber or lift. You now 202 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.480 have the ability to do on demand dispatch. You can now send cars to 203 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:09.120 somebody anywhere, anytime, right. And so in that that's not an example 204 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.080 that led to a company that we've built, but I think it's an interesting 205 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.919 it's kind of an analog around with an observation. That's its basic as GPS 206 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.720 always on in cars. You could have fifty or a hundred different interesting insights 207 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.120 than can then drive you to a business opportunity. Yeah, that makes a 208 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.879 lot of sense. How many kind of observations you typically do or have or 209 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:33.559 analyze maybe in a three month period, if that's fair to same. I'm 210 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.200 not too sure what the amount of period length is. And then kind of 211 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.679 go into insights and then how many do you do you think about on the 212 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.759 insight side? That kind of graduate maybe from our observation to a okay, 213 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.360 this is actually a compelling insight through it, and then kind of going down 214 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:52.639 your funnel into you know what, this is the one thing we want to 215 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.559 pursue this year, in the next couple years, in order to make her 216 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.720 into an actual business. Yeah, it's a good question and I think, 217 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.000 like all, like a lot of answers to really good questions. There's some 218 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.559 new wants there, but I'll give you some number because I think at the 219 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.919 high level, and then I'll tell you what the nuance is. Right. 220 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.440 So I would say in a given quarter we probably process, we probably track 221 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.120 five hundred to a thousand observations, of which we may talk about ten percent, 222 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:20.360 like somewhere between fifty and a hundred, right. So in any given 223 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.399 quarter because, again, observations are we're not very precious about them, because 224 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:26.679 the observation itself is just a fact, right, and and the fact, 225 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.679 if we all can agree on the verified fact, then that is useful because 226 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:35.600 as a baseline at least, no one will argue. Mike, that it 227 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.200 might give you said that you really feel like New York City doesn't have great 228 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.440 Mexican food. The fact could be that Mike said that New York City doesn't 229 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.559 agree with Mexican food, that doesn't. You know whether that's useful or not's 230 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:50.759 another question, right. But we'll track like hundreds of hundreds of those observations. 231 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:56.399 What will then happen is we will prioritize from that observation some that we 232 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:00.759 think are really useful and we will start to do diligence and work around those 233 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:05.120 observations to understand if there is a business use case or an insight into that 234 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:09.799 observation that will then maybe be the spark for a bigger opportunity. And so 235 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.919 in our process, usually that starts with more of a commercial lens, and 236 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:16.720 when I say commercial lends, it's trying to understand from the observation what is 237 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.720 the business opportunity that exists. And so you could see, you know often 238 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.799 that that, I would say, looks sometimes like what you think of Private 239 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.159 Equity Fund or a venture capital principle would be doing like okay. Well, 240 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.000 if in that observation, if we've generated some concepts around that observation, one 241 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.840 of them is text taxi dispatch. Okay. Well, well, let's start 242 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.679 by saying what is taxi dispatch? What does that market size look like? 243 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:41.840 What does that Industry Structure Look like? Is it very G is it very 244 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.399 geographically bound as a national what are regulations around that space? What are pain 245 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.480 points that taxi drivers have? What are paining points and consumers have? You 246 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.200 know, what are thing what are technologies that have been enabled and not enabled 247 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.440 in that space? And so you kind of start by taking that fact and 248 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.399 then generating in different insights that then allow you to build some sort of idea 249 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.000 around a market. And then, once you have that, I think for 250 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.200 us we kind of describe the process as a bit of a bow tie. 251 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.440 You kind of are generative, you're looking at a bunch of things and then 252 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:12.679 you're starting to become really brutal and we cut a lot right. And so 253 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.080 I would say that out of any out of a hundred observations we have, 254 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.559 if we spend actual time on ten or fifteen of them, out of the 255 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.639 ten or fifteen will probably cut two, three, D and twenty five very 256 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.519 quickly right. And the reason why I see there's a little bit of nuance 257 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.000 here is our funnels are not nothing ever really dies in our funnel. A 258 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.200 lot of things. What you basically say is, wow, the place that 259 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.840 we ended up going down in. That dig ended up in the dead end, 260 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.440 but there's usually some learning there. And I could go back to a 261 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.600 couple examples of companies we built where it's been in our process. It took 262 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.600 three or four years of work. That didn't mean we had five people working 263 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.240 one hundred percent time three to four years. It meant that they kind of 264 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:52.240 a recycled and they were they re entered the funnel because a new insight was 265 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:56.120 was derived from work and then later on we came back to it. And 266 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.519 so you know, if we have let's say five hundred observations and we do 267 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.400 work on fifty, it's like fifty to seventy five of them. We quickly 268 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.680 get down to five to fifteen things that we're spending a lot of time on. 269 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.119 Usually, for each of those things will probably do at least four to 270 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.440 six months of work before we green light it, and usually we start one 271 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.680 to two things a year. And so that's kind of the funnel. It's 272 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.079 a pretty brutal funnel, like we just don't do that many things, I 273 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.440 trust to post. Yeah, I know exactly, because I know you only 274 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.480 launch one or two companies a year. So I'm always kind of intrigued because, 275 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.559 I mean started off from five hundred to a thousand observations and then narrated 276 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.960 down to fifty to a hundred maybe insights, all the way down to that 277 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.359 kind of fifteen number where you're quite deep into the inside of the observation and 278 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.200 kind of going on there. I mean, and I'd imagine, what do 279 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.400 you say? Things are maybe recycled is it's a type of thing where it's 280 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.000 like, okay, this is really interesting, this other inside is other observation 281 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.079 or category we find particularly this might be the right moment in order to that. 282 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.160 We're going to concentrate on this idea. Maybe we'll table that for for 283 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.359 next year per se. Yeah, it's a really good question. I would 284 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.599 say when things have taken a long time or we enter the funnel, it's 285 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:15.119 less about US having been intentionally this is the wrong time and usually more of 286 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.079 wow, that is an interesting insight. This is going to take more time 287 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.160 for us to dig into. And we have this other thing that we're looking 288 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:25.680 at that is deeper in terms of US understanding the opportunity to space. Why 289 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.599 don't we focus on that thing? And so I'll give you a really good 290 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:32.160 example of this. In our portfolio we have a company a called Orchard. 291 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:36.400 It's in the real estate space. It really like the value proposition to the 292 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.279 consumers to make it as easy and seemless to buy a car at home as 293 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.559 it is a car, so really making that transaction a lot simpler. You 294 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:47.319 know, the company is now, you know, more than a dozen markets 295 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.599 and, as you know, a couple billion dollars of GMV. What's interesting 296 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:55.240 was that company existed in two cycles before we actually started the business. And 297 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.519 the real interesting the initial insight that we had that got us down the road 298 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.960 of building what is effectively a full stack, vertically integrated brokerage that does that 299 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:07.400 makes life really easy for consumers, was completely unrelated to making loaves really easy 300 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.279 for consumers. The initial the initial insight that we had was looking at what 301 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:17.119 was happening in the single family homeworld and where you had these big private equity 302 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.920 firms and these big investment firms who are able to in a matter of years, 303 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:27.119 go and price very accurately by turnaround and sell homes in a bunch of 304 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:32.000 different markets. And we said Wow, oh, like twenty five years ago, 305 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:37.200 and this goes to like a core a core concept that we really are 306 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.160 a core principle that we think is really interesting for us to find businesses with 307 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.000 this idea that there are obsolete assumptions that a lot of people in the world 308 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.039 hold and if you actually have an insight that breaks that obsolete assumption in a 309 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.839 large industry, you can clean a lot of value. And in this case, 310 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.720 what was the obsolete assumption, the obsolute assumption, was its own unique 311 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.680 thing and you can never do that at scale for single family holms. You 312 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.519 can never have an investment firm that does all that work, that does that 313 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:04.759 for thousands of homes within a quarter in a you know, in a part 314 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.599 of Phoenix, and through a combination of technology, better algorithm and pricing and 315 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.599 better operations, these investment firms basically prove that that was obsolete. That is 316 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.480 actually not true. You can do that. And so when we saw that 317 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.480 we said, okay, if that is true, what else? How else 318 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.920 does that apply into real estate markets that currently are held back because they continue 319 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.079 to hold that obsolete assumption? Wow, that's really, really interesting. What 320 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.920 are some insights? You might have? Have Very, very capelling insight that. 321 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:37.880 Okay, there's an opportunity here, but how do you maybe separate that 322 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.960 opportunity from making sure that they this is actually the right time we're to actually 323 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.880 start this business and not to maybe wait a year two, if that makes 324 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.640 sense. Yeah, we tend to look for look at Evergreen Industries and Evergreen 325 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:55.440 spaces where we think the opportunities are large and we're actually trying to be overly 326 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:57.920 precise around timing. Is a bit of a fulls errand so that might sound 327 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.039 a little bit of a strong statement, like and what I mean is like 328 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:04.799 I think through our insight process and you know, we do a lot of 329 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.720 work that's more commercially oriented, but we do a lot of work that's user 330 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.039 oriented. I actually think you know what you say, when you say timing 331 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:17.640 is off, what I hear is there are parts of our concept that actually 332 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.400 we can disprove using our work right and so when you say timing is off, 333 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:23.400 for example, I think often what I see in the venture markets is 334 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.039 you have this great technology, like really interesting technology. It's Ai, it's 335 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:32.359 Vr, it's web three or Crypto, but we're not sure actually how that 336 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:37.200 thing will be used right in in your words, that could be an example 337 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.680 of maybe that's something where timing is off in our work. What that would 338 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.240 mean is like if we saw we thought web three was really interesting technology, 339 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.599 or cryptoor or whatever machine learning are, we would then say, well, 340 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.480 we have to have a thesis around how that's in create value. And the 341 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.680 truth is our process of probably while we talk to a thousand users, we 342 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.000 would test these feces and what would likely happen is people are like, that's 343 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:00.559 really cool, but I'm not ready for that yet. I'm not going to 344 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.000 buy that thing. I'm not I don't understand how that's going to change my 345 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.240 life, and so that's how we would uncover that the timing is wrong. 346 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.519 I think we actually are almost in the opposite side of things, which is, 347 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:12.839 let's choose opportunities that are so large, that are usually complex, that 348 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.079 are hard to immediately arbitrage, such that if it takes us one or two 349 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.640 years to find the right person, we're okay with it, like it's that 350 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.240 big of an opportunity. It's that it's going to be around for that long. 351 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.799 In your process for you know, creating companies and of course, you 352 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:33.839 know launching maybe one to do companies a year or every couple years, what 353 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:38.079 is the hardest part of the entire process. Is it recruiting, for example, 354 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:42.519 and partner with a CEO, or is it figuring out, since you, 355 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.680 I'm sure you have several incredible insights and opportunities, figuring out the exact 356 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.039 one that you want to focus on and be able to focus? What do 357 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.440 you kind of think about, you know, in the kind of studiom model 358 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:57.960 that that you have, which is very concentrated, what was the hardest part 359 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.279 for you and your team? A lot of it is hard and fun and 360 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.519 I think the the challenge is actually what makes it so so exciting is you 361 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:08.279 know you kind of hit it right and you're like wow, we've you know, 362 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:12.559 we've really created magic. I would say I think the bottleneck, the 363 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:19.160 limited the limiting region in the reaction is the exact right founding CEO for the 364 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:22.160 right business. It's finding that match, but it's really on the talent side, 365 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:26.799 and that's not to discount in any way. Getting to really interesting insights 366 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.480 and large spaces is hard and validating that you know you kind of have an 367 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.480 idea of what we describe as the wedge pieces, but like the first couple 368 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.400 of years, like knowing that you built something that's going to have really economics 369 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.319 is really going to stand by itself and gets you gives you the chance to 370 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:45.319 go and take the big venturous swing like that's all difficult, but I think 371 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.039 our strong view is having all of that and then not having the right person 372 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.559 is kind of not the right strategy for juxtapose and in fact that would kind 373 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.480 of start to break the flywheel that we have, which is a few things 374 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.920 doing them well, that working, that attracting other really great people and that 375 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.359 fly wont going. And so for us, you know, it's sometimes painful 376 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.559 when you're sitting on something that you've spent twelve, eighteen months to work. 377 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.440 You know you want to do it. Time is taking by, companies are 378 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:14.440 getting built in the space and you're just sitting there waiting to find the right 379 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.680 person. But you know, in our experience getting that right person is so 380 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:19.640 important to we have to do it. Yeah, no, for sure, 381 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:25.839 for sure, absolutely. What's one thing do you think that you would change 382 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:30.519 about venture capital? Overall, it the whole business adventure. There are great 383 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.960 venture firms and I think venture capital right now is opening up a ton of 384 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.599 opportunity for entrepreneurs. You know someone with you know, an idea, insight, 385 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.720 it's hard work. You know, a couple friends beyond a computer can 386 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.880 start a company. I think this is generally it's an amazing asset class that's 387 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.079 creating a lot of opportunity. I think to your question, maybe not necessarily 388 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:55.079 something that would change, but something that does maybe frustrate me or give me 389 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.240 ankst is that venture that, I think, the actual true art adventure is 390 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:03.480 about depth and it's about deep knowledge. It's about understanding something in a way 391 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.839 that other people don't, having a countertuitive insight. You know, some people 392 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.519 talk about narrative violations, like a violation around something that everything believes it is 393 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:15.240 true. It's really like a Eureka insight and I feel like right now the 394 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.440 market is a lot of noise. Everything is a sound by it. Everything 395 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.400 is kind of a hundred forty characters and they in that world it's hard to 396 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.039 get your mind focused on trying to go really deep, and so if there's 397 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.839 anything that I would I would love to see is less noise and more folks 398 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:30.920 like kind of seeking truth. Yeah, and I think that and again, 399 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.079 there's nothing wrong with this, just just a different way to do it. 400 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.359 It just seems like there's also, you know, a lot of funds where 401 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.079 are quite large funds but in terms of your actual going deep aside of it. 402 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:42.119 You know, they might not take a board teat, for example, 403 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.680 even they they made like a big investment into a company, or it might 404 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.680 not even go, you know, that deep in terms of the actual that 405 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:53.000 company itself. So it's pretty interesting what's been happening. What's one book that's 406 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.920 inspired you personally? One Book that's inspired you professionally? You know, actually 407 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:00.920 there's a book that I just read which is kind of sits at the juncture 408 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.160 of both. So it's kind of a compot answer. But four thousand weeks 409 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.799 by Oliver Brookman and it's it's interesting book. It's about a journalist journey on 410 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.599 thinking about time and when you read the title it kind of sounds like a 411 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:17.720 selfhelp book around how you manage time, but it's actually secretly a it's kind 412 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.119 of a it's a philosophy book disguise as a selfhelp book. You know, 413 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.000 I read it. I think I read about four months ago and coming out 414 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.000 of this period during, you know, during covid and postcovid where time feels 415 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.960 more and more abstract. You're in front of your computer, you're in front 416 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.039 of zooms all day and you know all the normal things of life, all 417 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.160 the normal milestones and markers of life, you don't have. It's really interesting. 418 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.599 The book talks about not thinking about how you manage time, which makes 419 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:45.759 time feel like a resource, something that needs to be controlled, and more 420 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.880 about thinking about yourself and your life actually just being time and that's it, 421 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.039 and what that means about how you how you spend your time. You know 422 00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.960 what what counts, what doesn't count, and and I feel like it's just 423 00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.759 a I think it's a really interesting book as we continue to move this world 424 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.960 where maybe you know, you could still spend your time behind something like a 425 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.200 screen twenty four hours a day, and the way the reality of time feels 426 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.839 less tangible and it's really kind of gives you a bunch of different perspectives on 427 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.160 how to think about time. Yeah, I really appreciate you. You're very 428 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:19.279 original. Had anyone mentioned four thousand weeks? So really say that that's our 429 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.359 book list. My final question to you is, what's one piece of advice 430 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.200 that you have for founders? I'm going to sound like a bit of a 431 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.400 broken record here, because I think I spoken about this a couple times now 432 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.759 on this during this great conversation, but I would urge someone who's thinking about 433 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.200 starting a business or even in the process of thinking about a company they want 434 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.359 to join, I would urge them to really look and seek the differentiated insight 435 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.680 that either that company has or that they think they have when thinking about the 436 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.440 thing they're going to start. Right and even if it's not a space per 437 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.160 se like, what is it that you see in the market that other people 438 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.799 will disagree with and, if you are right, is going to be worth 439 00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:57.839 a lot. I think there's I think, again, going back to this 440 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.759 point on is they're being a lot of noise. It often feels like there's 441 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.920 there's a lot of me too in the market and there's a lot of I 442 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.920 think the space is interesting and hot, which again, I think is not 443 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.759 bad from a I want to experiment, I want to learn standpoint. I 444 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:14.599 think the technology is really cool. I think really great businesses get built off 445 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:19.200 of the backbones of insights that are either counterintuitive or that helped to prove obsolete 446 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:22.920 assumption that others have, because then you could do your zigging when everyone knows 447 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.440 a Ya getting. I think it's actually valuable. No, I love that. 448 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.839 I love that. I think that that's a really, really great piece 449 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.200 of advice. Think some for sharing. Patrick, thank you so much for 450 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:33.680 your time. I really appreciate you coming on the show. No, Mike, 451 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.640 Thanks for having me. This is been a ton of fun. And 452 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:38.279 there you have it. It was such a punder tiding with Patrick. I 453 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.079 hope you all enjoyed it as much as I do. If you enjoyed this 454 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.920 episode, I love it if you'd write a review on the apple podcast. 455 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.640 You're also welcome to follow me your host, Mike, on twitter at Mike 456 00:28:48.640 --> 00:29:11.680 Guelb, and also follow for episode announcements at Consumer VC. Thanks for listening, everyone,