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Aug. 9, 2022

Susan Lin (Felix) - What consumer-driven means, what are real competitive advantages for companies, and why Felix raised $600 million

Susan Lin (Felix) - What consumer-driven means, what are real competitive advantages for companies, and why Felix raised $600 million

Thank you Oksana Stowe for the introduction to our guest today, Susan Lin. Susan is a Partner at Felix Capital. Felix Capital is one of the premier consumer investors based in the UK. Some of their investments include Goop, Oatly, Peloton, Seller X. We discuss what consumer-driven means and how that’s even spilled over to B2B, difference when scaling a european company vs. U.S., what are real competitive advantages for companies, and why Felix recently raised $600 million

  1. What was your attraction to entrepreneurship and venture capital?
  2. How do you think about investing in consumer-driven companies today?
  3. What do you think about
  4. How do you spend your time? Do you have a thesis?
  5. Congratulations on raising $600m! We’ve seen this trend in consumer that as funds get larger and larger, investing in consumer brands becomes less of a focus. Will this be the case with Felix?
  6. Why did you decide to join Felix Capital?
  7. What’s different about the European venture ecosystem vs. U.S.?
  8. What are your thoughts on the fundraising market of today?
  9. Where are some of the trends and opportunities you’re seeing in Europe?
  10. What do you make of this current market?
  11. What’s one thing you would change about VC?
  12. What’s one book that has inspired you personally and one that inspired you professionally?
    1. When breath becomes air
  13. What’s the best piece of advice that you’ve received?
    1. Authentic self
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:16.559 Oh, hello and welcome to the consumer VC. I am your host, 2 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:20.079 Michael, and on this show we talked about the world of venture capital and 3 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:25.160 innovation in both consumer technology and consumer products. If you're enjoining this content, 4 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:29.920 you could subscribe to my newsletter, the consumer VC DOT sub stack dot com, 5 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:33.640 to get each new episode and more consumer news delivered straight to your inbox. 6 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:36.960 Thank you, Extisto, for the introduction to our guest today, Susan 7 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:41.320 Lynn. Susan is a partner at Felix capital. Felix capital is one of 8 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:45.439 the premier consumer investors based in the UK. I mean some of their investments 9 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:50.520 include Goop, totally, peloton seller x. We discuss what consumer driven means, 10 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.600 how it's spilled over to be to be the difference when scaling a European 11 00:00:54.719 --> 00:01:00.520 company verse one that's based in the US. What is a real competitive dvantage 12 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:06.000 for a company today? Why Felix recently raised six million and much, much 13 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:11.959 more. I love this conversation. Without further ADO, here Susan. Susan, 14 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:14.760 thank you so much for joining me today. How are you or the 15 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.760 saving, I guess, your time. Thank you so much for having me. 16 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:22.040 It's a four thirty four here in London. Um, actually, it's 17 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:23.519 a bit of a Great Day, but we've had a string of really nice 18 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.319 weather so I can't complain. It's it's about as nice as it gets here 19 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.879 in the British summer. That's good and still and I would consider four thirties 20 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.280 still day. So part of the day. Yeah, I'm telling you part 21 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.120 of the day. It actually well, I was gonna say in winter it 22 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:40.280 gets dark really early, but in summer it actually goes late, until ten 23 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.680 PM. So it's really nice. So what was your initial attraction like? 24 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:48.319 How did you get started in entrepreneurship and venture capital from the very beginning? 25 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.519 Yeah, so it's funny actually I was I was recently thinking. I had 26 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.239 a little boy about two and a Bi years ago and I was reflecting a 27 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:57.920 little bit more about this and it's actually a funny story because I have to 28 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.400 actually credit my parents it a lot. So my parents were while they were 29 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:06.359 sort of Chinese immigrants to Australia and originally were researches, but then they kind 30 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:09.280 of caught the startup bug in the original nineties Internet era. So they were 31 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.400 using computers for their own research and then they got really interested about the you 32 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:16.080 know, the potential of the Internet and then, Um, they became sort 33 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:22.879 of Sero entrepreneurs. So they actually started one company together, which was pretty 34 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:24.439 I don't know that I would recommend that. Was Pretty bold moved. But 35 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:28.400 as a result I was, you know, I was sort of surrounded like 36 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.599 as a kid growing up, especially when I was like, I think, 37 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:36.080 a teenager. I met there like early co founders, their first initial investors. 38 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:38.319 I just thought it was a really interesting journey that they've been sort of 39 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:43.240 saw also the dot com boom and bust actually, and then they for a 40 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:46.639 period loud ran their company in Hong Kong and and Chin Jen, which is 41 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.199 this tech city. Now it's this huge metropolis in China. But I sort 42 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.360 of also got to witness a bit firsthand just like that incredible transformation Um, 43 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:58.199 that took place over five ten years in China where sort of tech just just 44 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.719 sort of disrupted and transformed every thing, and I think that that should have 45 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.599 got me initially kind of interested in it. And then I took a very 46 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:07.000 broad about route. I went to I went to the US for a school 47 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.319 for College. I then consulted to consulting at a company called Bain, Baining 48 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.719 Company in San Francisco, worked with actually a lot of tech companies there. 49 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.800 Also a couple of stands at different startups to different startups in the US as 50 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.759 an operator, both on the product management side and on the bus deaf side. 51 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.599 And then when I came to London about five six years ago, I 52 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:28.199 got recruited to be an investor. Previously had a different fund by a former 53 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.840 colleague of mine and then I discoverished sort of really enjoyed investing. And so 54 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.639 yeah, now I'm here. What are is what the difference is and what 55 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.919 leads you down? When you got recruited to get into investing, you know 56 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:45.840 what was the opportunity? Why do you decide to maybe dip your toes and 57 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.000 the others had the table, so to speak, and what's been like the 58 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:54.719 biggest learning or change from from operating? So I was always, I guess 59 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:59.759 I had always been sort of interested in going into investing. I just had 60 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:01.680 to have assumed that that was something people did. Much later in life I 61 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.360 sort of saw, you know, the basic community is pretty small, as 62 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.240 you know really well. It's a pretty small ecosystem, which I think if 63 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.039 you are an outsider, it's kind of hard to get in and I always 64 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.960 assumed like I would have to like really earn my stripes and, you know, 65 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.199 be either a successful founder or be like a long term, you know, 66 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.560 senior operator who's been like, you know, twenty years building a company 67 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.839 and then sort of pivot into investing. But then I got recruited by a 68 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.920 former colleague to join a fund based in London called HD capital, which mostly 69 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.399 does growth equity and private equity, and it was just sort of work in 70 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.839 there um in their tech, um investing Um team, and it was sort 71 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.759 of quite quite curious to check it out. I mean it was it was 72 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.480 a large and much large organization of a big fund and so, you know, 73 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.279 operating in a different way. But uh, I thought it would be. 74 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.279 It's always one of those things where I wanted to really prove the hypothesis 75 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.639 to see if I enjoyed it, and so, as opportunity of it always 76 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.759 just felt like I couldn't say no. And then when I was there, 77 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.560 you know really really enjoyed the work and Um and worked with got to work 78 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.639 with some really interesting companies, but found that overall, the stage in the 79 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.920 the size of the fund was just not not really a fit for me. 80 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.319 It was just much later stage, more mature companies which were sort of less 81 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.360 open to change, I would say, much less sort of disruptive, and 82 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.720 then, you know, also the way the company it self operated was just 83 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:18.680 a very sort of structured behemoth. What made you excited about working with younger 84 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.920 companies, earlier stage companies, and what, I guess, ultimately led you 85 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.079 to Felix? I will sort of put my hand up and say I'm a 86 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.720 bit of a failed founder. Um. So I tried to start to start 87 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:31.839 ups when I was living in SF and none of them really got off the 88 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.279 ground properly and I learned a lot through the journey, but I you know, 89 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.600 I discovered that, you know, I think it's good to learn that 90 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.920 where you're capable if you're not capable of and I found it a pretty lonely 91 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.680 journey actually. I think for me it was sort of getting back into you 92 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:47.519 know, I loved excitement and when I joined the two startups they were also 93 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.240 at series a stage. So I love the excitement of being in an early 94 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.800 stage company, when you're figuring things out, when you're testing the product, 95 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.199 when you're figuring out you gonna go to market channels, Um, and when 96 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.879 you know there's just you're in that sort of building to us to learn mode. 97 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.920 But then I also I found that personally I sometimes, if I'm doing 98 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.759 something myself, I find a difficult to person of your alone, and so 99 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:10.879 when you're on the other side, you have multiple portfolio companies you're working with 100 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.199 and also you know your own team that you're collaborating with, and it's just 101 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:16.240 a it's a very different dynamic, and so I feel like I get to 102 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:20.519 get the taste of that journey, but but not someone having to do it 103 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:26.800 by myself. That's awesome. That mays let us sense why in Philixes had 104 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.480 to raise such a large fund and what we're what's maybe some of the opportunities 105 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.879 that you're that you're seeing within as it relates to consumer yeah, it's a 106 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.879 great question. So it just does. Maybe it's a bit of background for 107 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.720 some of the listeners and Felix were actually pretty young fund from ourselves. We 108 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.279 we do think of ourselves at the startup or a scale up, and that 109 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.800 was part of what really excited me about joining the team here. So we're 110 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.800 we're just raised out four set of funds. When we started in twenty fifteen, 111 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:54.720 first found it was. Yeah, it was quite a bit small, 112 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:58.000 a hundred and twenty million or so, and then the latest found of six 113 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.560 hundred. You obviously have seen over the the last few years there has just 114 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.319 been sort of the fact that, like we typically a lot of our investment 115 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.800 is at the early stage side. Um. So we saw sort of two 116 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:09.079 challenges. One is, even at the early stage, you know, rounds 117 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:12.439 were getting larger, you know, initial investment size, we're getting bigger, 118 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.560 and so there was sort of an increase commensurate with that on on the fund 119 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.319 side that was required. And the other thing is that we just saw, 120 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.600 you know, a lot of exciting companies in our own portfolio really break out 121 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:27.000 and we didn't quite have enough reserves to really follow on and so, you 122 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.319 know, we or maybe we could, could follow in the next round, 123 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:31.399 but we couldn't do the series c round, a series d round. We 124 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.720 really have a strong conviction try to back, you know, our companies as 125 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.079 long as we can and partner for the long term, and so this time 126 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:41.920 we've we've been able to sort of raise a larger fund which, you know, 127 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.279 in large part, will be used to reinvest in in portfolio company. 128 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:47.680 The second part of your question in terms of opportunities with within. You know, 129 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.959 we we we started out being sort of very thematically focused, particularly around 130 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:55.800 the consumer lifestyle, which actually doesn't mean we only invest in consumer we probably 131 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.199 invest in sixties seven that are more consumer facing, you know, products or 132 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:03.240 brands or Plat arms, and then another is more M B, Two b 133 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:09.240 software tools that are either enabling sort of this e commerce and Consumer Revolution or 134 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:13.639 sort of consume arise workplace tools. But we still see that, you know, 135 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.399 there's a huge opportunity there across both Europe and the US and we're quite 136 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.480 we look at things quite globally. That hasn't been tapped into. So so 137 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.680 super excited to continue to double down in those areas. What we've seen from 138 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.680 because, of course, I mean Felix is very well known Um as being, 139 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:35.080 you know, one of the few, you know, very consumer heavy 140 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.000 funds, especially, as you said, on the lifestyle, you know, 141 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.200 investing in, you know, consumer brands and what have you. And what 142 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:46.919 I've kind of seen is when funds are raising that, you know, have 143 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.879 been maybe known for investing in consumer brands larger and larger and larger amounts, 144 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:56.039 they actually maybe make a pivot or an evolution as we call it, to 145 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.600 other categories as you move forward. Since you know, six hundred that's a 146 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.440 lot of money. How much of an emphasis now are you still putting on 147 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:09.399 consumer brands? The way we define brand is not really sort of the narrow 148 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.679 sense of like a d to c brand where you know you're you're selling a 149 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.720 new product online consumers. I guess, you know, when we think about 150 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:18.960 brand, we think about it more broadly. It could be, you know, 151 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.039 I mean some of even the big sort of B two B companies, 152 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.480 whether it's stripe or slack or Canva like that is a brand as well. 153 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:28.840 So I think we see brand more more broadly. But I think you know, 154 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.039 on that we still you know that that is a big, big the 155 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.519 part about thesis, which is that you know, really I think a lot 156 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.960 of companies, or a lot of funds rather, would would sort of put 157 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.080 a strong emphasis around tech mode or around sort of Ip mode or even data 158 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.759 modes, and I think for us actually we see the brand mode as being 159 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.840 hugely strong. I mean, if you look at sort of some of the 160 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:48.519 most valuable companies still today, you know, whether it's apple, whether it's 161 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.399 Tesla, like so much of that intensible on their balancetreet. That intendible value 162 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.799 is tied up in their brand and so we see that as hugely important. 163 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.159 I think. Well, you know, we'll continue to invest across of from 164 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.759 areas around the consumer products site or platform side, you know, so from 165 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:09.320 digital health to fitness to Um. We've we're looking at consumer financial wellness tools, 166 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.440 um to sort of e commerce marketplace platforms. Um. It will be 167 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.159 pretty broad, but I think definitely always with a modern brand sort of element 168 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.080 to it. And actually we one of the investments that we worked on earlier 169 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.879 this year which we we didn't do a big announcement on, but actually it's 170 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.159 a great l a based brand which still has an Inde two C brand. 171 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.360 Actually, Um. It's a company quote out place. I don't know if 172 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.360 you you know. Yeah, of course, of course they're great Um. 173 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.000 So really fantastic mission driven team, you know, really wanting to bring people 174 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.600 together and cultures together through an know, the kitchen and dining table and building 175 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.879 just these beautiful, accessible and also diverse um kitchen products. So, you 176 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:48.440 know, I think a lot of people would probably have said, you know, 177 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.440 that they are shifting focus away from those types of investment. But I 178 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.840 think when when executed really well, we were still super excited about them. 179 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.639 Yeah, it seems like the bar has just been raised right, because raised 180 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:03.159 and eagine too that you're thinking on the consumer brand side of things, maybe 181 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:05.559 working in retail as a must factor. I know, I think our place 182 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.519 isn't in retail, but maybe that's, you know, part of the plan, 183 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.200 you know going forward. Um, since you know e commerce, it's 184 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.919 obviously grown quite considerably the penetration during covid but it's still very much a minority 185 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:20.759 when it comes to sales right in retail. So you also said something. 186 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.440 Well, you said many things very interesting, but one of the things that 187 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.039 I thought was quite fascinating about to die deeper on is brand mote. I 188 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.440 know that you said that. You know other investors. I mean I'm sure 189 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.960 that that you're also looking at what is your maybe technology, what's the technology 190 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:37.879 mode? Or, you know, if it's a marketplace doesn't have network effects, 191 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.960 or if it's a SASS business, like what's the churn rate and kind 192 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:46.399 of the cohorts that kind of come with that? But when you're evaluating company, 193 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.360 how do you assess if they have a true brand mode? Must be 194 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.279 tricky or or maybe harder in some ways to measure if maybe a marketplace is 195 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:00.159 working right and you're seeing like the demand getting pulled to the actual website or, 196 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.720 you know, marketplace. How do you measure brand mode in your and 197 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.799 maybe maybe like some examples about how maybe this is shifted not only consumer but 198 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.360 it could be even like a you know, on the B Two B side 199 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.000 too. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's just such a great question. 200 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.679 I mean I think it is. It is really difficult to put, 201 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:18.200 to pin down, because one of those things and that I think maybe that's 202 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.879 the reason why some investors will shy a bit away from this, because I 203 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.080 think it is it can be difficult to quantify, you know, particularly at 204 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.080 the earlier stage side, like it is a bit of a mix of, 205 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.679 we call it, you know, art and science, right. The brand 206 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.279 magic is is it is a little bit like you you know when you see 207 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.080 it, but it's difficult to put it into words. One of the metrics 208 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.960 we do use sort of internally, we call us of a customer love, 209 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.519 which is really looking at, you know, the trying to understand does it 210 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.360 does this company and the founders really understand like the community that they're speaking to? 211 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.720 Are they doing great job of fostering that community. Are People engaging with 212 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.320 the brand not just from at a transactional level, but at a sort of 213 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.279 deeper, you know, more emotional type of level? And then where there's 214 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.639 sort of different types of metrics, we might look at that. You know, 215 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.799 it's like around cohort, performance and repeat and how much of your sales 216 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.799 are organic or versus, you know, and referral. I think we we 217 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.879 are quite, you know, conscious of generally not over relying on paid performance 218 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.399 marketing channels, but looking at all these other things, I think it's it's 219 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.240 always a little little bit, you know, it's it's always. It can 220 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.600 be a difficult one to pin down, but then you sometimes, you know, 221 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.440 in the early I mean sometimes for early stage companies, we we look 222 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.960 at all of the comments people leave on the instagram with tiktok pages, because 223 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.399 based on the Emojis, you know when it's the heart, moode, you 224 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.879 know, the star, emotoralate, you can just and they'll tag their friends 225 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.519 like you can see that that's there. Is that like brand mode and love 226 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.120 and maybe what's one example from our own portfolio? It's this company called Majury. 227 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:41.639 I don't know, if you've you've heard of them. It's a company 228 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:48.039 that came that was in Toronto that actually one of my my form colleagues actually 229 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:52.200 found initially on on instagram and they are the modern jewelry brand Um and have, 230 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.799 you know, just developed over time. You know, there's sort of 231 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:01.000 really known for bringing these like accessible, high quality, like a wearable pieces 232 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.399 to millennial and women, but also, you know, some older generations, 233 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.120 some younger generation. How do you think as well, because we've had a 234 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.519 couple investors on the show that invested in Peloton, I would say regarding you 235 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.120 know, category creators, because I think that there's there's no doubt that when 236 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:20.120 when it comes to connected fitness, that Peloton really was, you know, 237 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.879 the winner there, at least the first winner, right. I mean there's 238 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.279 a lot, a lot of other companies that are obviously doing pretty well. 239 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:30.919 When you think about category kind of creators, when you're looking to invest where, 240 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.759 I'd Imagine Tam it's really kind of hard to measure it or to really 241 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.440 quite understand because if you took the market of, you know, connective fitness 242 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.320 back then, like I had on, for example, when Eric Paley was 243 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.320 on and talking about fitbit were like the market for, you know, wearables 244 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.919 when they came out was it was pretty pioneering. When you're an investor, 245 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.159 how important is Tam? How do you think about market sizing in general, 246 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.120 since I'd imagine this is kind of a tricky area, especially in the early 247 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.559 stages, if you want to seek true innovation? You know, we've seen 248 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.440 a lot, also in the food space. So we we've invested quite a 249 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.080 lot and while, both on the food delivery side but also in in, 250 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.000 you know, newer food format. So we've we've been invested in Um, 251 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.960 in a company called all plants, you're in the UK, which does vegan 252 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.840 meal, frozen meals that are delivered. We were also like you'd be invested 253 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.639 in totally Um, you know, founded in Sweden, and it's yeah, 254 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.919 a lot of these things where there is AH, there is sort of ongoing 255 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.279 transformation in the shift of of consumer preferences and behavior. It's really hard to 256 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.600 tell. So you can you can look at I mean, taking example, 257 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.240 when they started, there was no old milk market at all. You know, 258 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.679 it was probably like ten, ten million or something like that Um. 259 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.480 So they really much like Peloton. They really created that and so you know, 260 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.840 you can look at adjacent forms of spending, right, which is like, 261 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:45.559 you know in that case, like, okay, what is the overall 262 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.879 dairy market side, which is regular cow's milk? And then, you know, 263 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.639 you also look at some of the growth of like other alternative milks, 264 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:54.759 where it's all mends and's okay, do you kind of like pick apart and 265 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.600 kind of and kind of take away some of that market share from the dairy 266 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:00.559 market in this case? Yeah, exactly. In the same with with Peloton, 267 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.360 right, you sort of look like what are people generally spending on fitness, 268 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.120 health and fitness and and how much do people care about this? And 269 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.320 you know how you know, can they take more and more of that that 270 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.399 share over time? Those are some ways to trianglate, but sometimes you know 271 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.360 they're there. It's also it is a little bit of I think, especially 272 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.039 when you're creating those new behaviors. You know what what you know, and 273 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.759 and Pelotoni still think you know have done really well, is they've just made 274 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.559 they have, like to your point on the text product. They've just made 275 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.559 such a good product that, like switching from the incumbent to what they're doing 276 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.960 is not at all a chore. It's not, you know, it's it's 277 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:34.879 a delightful experience, you know, and that's why, you know, totally 278 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:40.600 was really successful in the early days because they went through Baristas who couldn't really 279 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.240 do the same level of froth with other forms of alternative milk, like soil 280 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.799 or almond and and oat milk actually enabled to make the same product, and 281 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:49.279 so people were drink and said, actually, this tastes great. So like 282 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.120 why, you know, if it's if it's the same cost and it tastes 283 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.120 great and it's nutritionally good, you know, and it also helps, you 284 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.039 know, save the planet, like why wouldn't I do that? And the 285 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.360 same with, you know, Peloton. But I think some times you do 286 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.960 see products which are trying to innovate upon an incumbent but like aren't quite good 287 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.480 enough or don't quite get to the same level of efficacy and then you find 288 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:12.119 that, like there it doesn't ever quite make it into mainstream adoption. What 289 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:18.319 do you think about scaling a company or starting a company in Europe versus, 290 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.519 you know, the US, or North America for that matter, but like 291 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.880 when you're an investor, what are maybe some of the differences? It could 292 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.640 be the types of founders that you meet. It could be how you actually 293 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.680 go about, you know, scaling the business, but like what or maybe 294 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.119 some of the difference just in your mind. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. 295 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.799 So I think the I mean one of the challenges, but also, 296 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.880 you know, one of the exciting things about Europe is is it's it's such 297 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:47.680 a it's not at all monolithical. It's it's so different. You know, 298 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.920 it's it's it's diverse, which is, you know, which is often a 299 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:55.200 challenge because, you know, sometimes it's easier for British companies just expand into 300 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.599 the US or even to Canada Australia, despite the distance, just because culturally 301 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.039 land which wise it is a little bit a bit more similar, rather than 302 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.240 they go to France, which is literally, you know, a two hour 303 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.519 drive or train ride away. It's geographically, you know, so so much, 304 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.319 so much closer, but yet it's just very different in terms of consumer 305 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.319 habits, language, culture, all of that. In Europe. We find 306 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.440 is I think Europe has, the landscape has changed a lot over the last, 307 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.240 you know, ten, twenty years. I think you know there was 308 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.519 in twenty years ago, you know, you really there were many, I 309 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:27.319 mean there were. There were much fewer venture firms. I think the straw 310 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:33.079 ups at the time we're probably I mean the venture landscape in Europe grew more 311 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.880 out of like the traditional private equis have of industry. So a lot of 312 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.720 the funds were much more conservative, they were much more sort of financial investors 313 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.440 and what opraded, you know, less founder friendly. I think, you 314 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.680 know, over the last you know, ten twenty years as there's been a 315 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.200 number of like really large, you know and exciting companies come out of Europe, 316 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.799 whether it's you know, from spotify and then CLARINA and far fetch. 317 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.400 On the consumer side. You also have like, you know, large companies 318 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.599 Audien, which is doing a global checkouts business, Um from the Amsterdam you 319 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.880 know. I think there's been that always fuels the ecosystem, right. You 320 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.279 have a couple of large sort of markeee exits, um investors get really excited, 321 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.400 but also you just have a great base of like the early employees who 322 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:15.920 become either talented founders or angel investors and psyche recycle back into the ecosystem. 323 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.759 So I think, you know, compared to to probably you know, ten, 324 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.799 ten years ago or even five, six years ago, when I first 325 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.880 entered the scene here in London. I think it's it's the founders are much 326 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.440 more have gotten more ambitious in Europe and I think also with covid especially. 327 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.480 The great thing about Europe is is because everything is so close, you can 328 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:36.960 hire great two you can have a distributed team and you can have to hire 329 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.359 great talent. I mean there's some great engineers in places like Poland and Hungary, 330 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.319 and so you don't need to constrain yourself and as a result that the 331 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:48.240 cost of getting started is often much, much lower than the US, especially 332 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.920 if you're based on the West Coast or New York. Those are all fascinating 333 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.480 really you know, interesting points. I've had on a couple London investors and 334 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:02.400 they were saying to how typically British company these might look outside of Europe. 335 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.680 First when it comes to expansion, whether it's the West, but even like 336 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.839 even also like the east as well too, Um, and looking like at 337 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.799 different parts of Asias. That's really interesting. Yeah, that's that's actually good 338 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.759 point, because I do think because of that they all are companies here in 339 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.079 Europe designed their product day one to be more global in mine, whereas I 340 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.640 think American companies sometimes suffer a bit from the opposite, which is, you 341 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.920 know, the first five ten years you're really US focused because the market there 342 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.400 is huge, and then when you do want to expand outside, actually there's 343 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:37.200 it's much harder than you think. Do you find that consumers and specific European 344 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:44.079 markets favor companies that were started within their country? I would love to kind 345 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.119 of hear your take on this. I don't want to stereotype. I mean 346 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.720 I think it's it's interesting. I think some countries probably do. I mean 347 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:55.680 the French market is notoriously difficult to crack, especially for outsiders. We've had, 348 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:57.880 you know, German companies try to enter. We've had like British companies, 349 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.359 American companies it. It is a very sort of homerown market and there's 350 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.640 a lot of pride in that. I think the UK market is much more 351 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.160 open. So you know, there's I think, especially in London it's very 352 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.759 diverse multicultural, but I think also just because, you know, there is 353 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:17.119 a lot of like American media and influence, but also, so you know, 354 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.240 other European media and influence, and so I think it's here it's a 355 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.920 very sort of open minded consumer base. I know you you pay a lot 356 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.240 attention to what's happening in China, any inspiration at all to what's happening in 357 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.319 China, or is it, you know, so different that it's actually really 358 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.720 hard to to kind of think about that? It's such an interesting question. 359 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.400 It's also fairly close to my heart because I still have family, you know, 360 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.440 extended family there. And the sad thing is, I think, with 361 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.920 combination of both covid and what's been happening politically that within China, domestically and 362 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:56.799 also so, I guess you're politically, globally, it does feel like past 363 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.799 have diverged even more and they're they've made a number of government level, you 364 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.359 know, senior government level, changes, especially towards the tech ecosystem, which 365 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.240 has made it even harder, I would say, for the Chinese tech to 366 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.640 collaborate with Western companies to enter into China. There's still obviously happening. You 367 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.079 know, there's, you know, tiktok being one one. You know, 368 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.960 Tiktok is still owned owned by by dance, which is headquartered in Beijing. 369 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.359 So obviously there's there's a lot of like exceptions to that, but I think 370 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.880 there is. It does feel like that the things are debating more Um and 371 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.079 I think it is really hard to predict. I think for a long time 372 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.480 I expected sort of live commerce to come in a bigger way into both the 373 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.839 U S and in Western Europe, just because in China became like live streaming, 374 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.039 live commerce even from ten, probably, well, maybe not twenty ten 375 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.720 years ago, at least like six, seven years ago, has been huge. 376 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.279 On Team Mall and and all the other channels, pindot a lot and 377 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.200 others. I've seen quite a lot of startups try to replicate or, you 378 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.240 know, take learnings from that and try to have a similar platform here, 379 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:59.000 and it's never really yeah, it's never really really taken off and I don't 380 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.079 know if that's just because they haven't quite found the right you know, the 381 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.880 product just hasn't isn't quite the areat and you know, no one's found the 382 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:10.160 magical product that will make it sort of just explode, or if it's just 383 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.400 like social behavior, is just is just a bit different. It seems like 384 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:18.960 one of the areas on the commerce head of things that I love your perspective. 385 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.839 Tell me if I'm I'm totally wrong here, but that we've, you 386 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.720 know, been lagging in is really that like U Y M experience when it 387 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:27.599 comes to e commerce. Ali Baba, Talbao, they were the ones that, 388 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.279 you know, put live streaming center stage and of course then, you 389 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:36.240 know, adoption probably, you know, happened quite quickly because and we haven't 390 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.079 seen that from on, you know, Amazon. You know, it's not 391 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.680 it's not really a pleasant experience, right. That is totally wrong. That 392 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.720 is totally right. And even shopify, shopping on shopify, it's not really 393 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.480 a pleasant experience. It's not like Pindo Dough, which seems I've never experienced 394 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.720 pindow dough, but I've I've watched a bunch of kind of like youtube videos 395 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.440 and kind of and kind of stuff and just to see like how it kind 396 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.240 of works, to educate myself. Unfortunately, never tried it. It like 397 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.240 it seems like a much more fun way to, you know, experience shopping. 398 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.319 It actually to shop, not just, you know, not just to 399 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:10.240 buy. Yeah, I think you're right about I think it is really sort 400 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.640 of the incumbents. Partly. Is probably because incumbents haven't really innovated. So 401 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.519 you're your spot on that. You know, Ali Baba and and top off, 402 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:18.720 from the early days sort of they they've been. I mean, if 403 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.839 you look at this sort of the way that their homepage, that or just 404 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.000 their user experience has has innovated across the years, you know, both on 405 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.680 web, desktop and on mobile, it's it's been dramatic, whereas we look 406 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.599 at the Amazon homepage and the product pages like it, literally it feels like 407 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.799 it hasn't really changed at all in the last twenty years and it's it's, 408 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.680 you know, it's such a static I mean it's like the least engaging experience 409 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.720 and yet, you know, all of value and it's like almost fift e 410 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.319 commerce spend now is on Amazon. So, you know, I don't know 411 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.000 if that means people just don't really want or desire a more engaging experience or 412 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.599 if it's just because it's, you know, Amazon is so much better on 413 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.000 everything else in terms of, you know, price and convenience and all of 414 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:00.839 that that we just know. We're sort of just happy to to take it 415 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.400 out as it is. But I think, yeah, I think the incumbents 416 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.359 being so those gate keepers of that has been a big factor. They're also 417 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:11.160 like these these I don't know, these other elements where, like in China, 418 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:15.359 this is a cultural stereotype that I'll say, but like they're people really 419 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.759 love a good deal. Like social I mean this is sort of the behavior. 420 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.599 You know, it really emerged kind of trying to put a leap fraud 421 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:26.079 and went from like this very wet market based commerce context where you know, 422 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.839 people were in the markets like, you know, negotiating, discounting, yelling 423 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:32.319 at you know, saying hey, if I buy more, can you give 424 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.480 me Um this price, to sort of like not skipping supermarkets, but like 425 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:38.440 going from that almost to to to e commerce in many cases. And so 426 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.359 a lot of those social elements really really resonated. And you know I have 427 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.559 aunts, Um and my grandma actually, who's passed away, but she never, 428 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:49.559 you know, she's never used laptop of a computer and there in her 429 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.319 life. Um, and she's never really you know, she just doesn't think 430 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.319 about technology. She but she she would be on those type of channels because 431 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.160 she just, you know, she wanted to bid and like find a good 432 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.160 deal. I know we've touched on covid Um. What were some of your 433 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:10.200 learnings throughout these past you know, two years Um during this covid period? 434 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:12.480 Yeah, yeah, so I think you know that and I think you know 435 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.559 one of Mike you mentioned this early but, you know, thinking about what 436 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.000 are the opportunities that we see in in consumer more broadly, and I think 437 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:25.240 we we just see, you know, there's been such a massive transformation in 438 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:30.160 terms of the way that people's lifestyles have changed just dramatically the last fifty years. 439 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.440 I mean, I'll just give one small example, but you know, 440 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.319 fifty years ago, seventy people who were aged between twenty five and thirty five 441 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.039 years old in the U S and Western Europe. They of them were living 442 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:47.279 with the spousand child and now in one it's less than so like that style 443 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.640 of living has like completely shifted and now it's like most you know, there's 444 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:53.759 like like's a quart of people who live with roommates. There's like another quarter 445 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:59.519 of people who are living with a partner or Esso, but with without children. 446 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:02.799 There's part of that's who's still living with our family, the parents as 447 00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:06.160 well, and so you know, that's just one small example but, like 448 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:07.640 you know, they will also have huge transformations. And like you know how 449 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.240 the percentage of freelance population, like how many people working freelance? And so 450 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:15.599 I think that we see and then, you know, you layer on top 451 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.240 of that like changes in the way that people self identify. You know, 452 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.680 when you think about the you know, the percentage of Gen Z, for 453 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:26.359 example, who identifies like L G B T Q, Non Binary, we 454 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.799 think like that's you know, all of those that changes. Like you compare 455 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.640 that to then the existing infrastructure most consumers use, both in terms of, 456 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.960 like, you know, what we what we eat, what we buy, 457 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.599 our education at housing out, healthcare, our childcare, like none of that 458 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.720 is really caught on. So we see like that huge disconnect being a huge 459 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:48.519 opportunity. But also then covid has just accelebrated so many of those trends Um 460 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.519 and it's made you know, people you know even more, in some cases 461 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:56.359 even more isolated. It's it's it's Um certainly made healthcare. It's put an 462 00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:59.960 even bigger straight on healthcare, and so we think a lot of those trends 463 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.440 have sort of been, you know, probably leap frogs three or five years 464 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:04.839 with covid and now or you know, now they're not going to grow at 465 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:07.680 such a crazy rate, but like they're going to sort of stay where they 466 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.559 are or continue to grow. Is that hard as an investor, since you 467 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.799 know, you do invest in a in a bunch of technology companies and you 468 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.039 maybe see this massive, you know, gains impenetration or gains in the past 469 00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:22.400 two years and you have to almost say to yourself, okay, this is 470 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.799 great, but let's like pump the brakes, because this is also during like 471 00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:27.559 the covid period. Yeah, I mean I definitely, you know, there 472 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:32.319 are some some companies that like wrote. You know, there's like I remember 473 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:33.720 there was like this huge you know. I mean, I don't want to 474 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.000 like, I mean, you know, they're like a lot of platforms like 475 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:38.640 clubhouse, for example, or like, you know, there were like a 476 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.160 lot of virtual pent platforms that were really, really big and really popular and 477 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:47.920 during Covid and have definitely sort of lost some of that momentum or or UM 478 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.319 engagement afterwards, um as people have gone back out into the real well a 479 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.759 little bit more. But I think, you know, a lot of the 480 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.799 ones, the trends that we've seen in terms like, you know, increasing 481 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.920 digitization of the people, that the way that people like, for example, 482 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.240 when I want to receive their their their health care or um, in the 483 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.960 way that, you know, going back to sort of the more obvious e 484 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.839 commerce examples like that, hasn't that that trend hasn't reversed per se. It's 485 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.440 just to a point, you know, in some cases might have slowed down, 486 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.079 and I think that's where we need to be thoughtful about. Okay, 487 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.640 what is the what is the shorter term trend and opportunities and versus the longer 488 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.839 term, and how do we plan? And, especially if it's a for 489 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.160 all portfolio company, how can we help them think about the right way to 490 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:30.559 plan for the next, you know, two years to grow and in capital 491 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.759 efficient ways, versus investing for longer term opportunities? Got It. What are 492 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.400 your thoughts in terms of the fundraising climate today? It seems like you're in 493 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:45.079 a pretty good position, since you're just raise sill, but thoughts? Yeah, 494 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.000 no, we are. We feel very lucky to be in this position. 495 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.279 So we're we're definitely open for business for any founders that want to chat. 496 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.599 We think it's obviously I think it is tough profound us, but we 497 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:57.960 genuinely do believe that, like a lot of great companies have come out of 498 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.759 previous downturns, it does mean that, you know, for certain growth tage 499 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:06.400 companies, particularly ones that have like raised that frothy evaluations in the past. 500 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.680 Like the next twelve or twenty four months is going to be a period of 501 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:14.119 readjustment and getting back to fundamentals. But we actually think for for earlier stage 502 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.160 companies, it's it's a really good environment because, you know, suddenly there's 503 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.160 not as much competition for for talent. You know some things, things aren't 504 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.279 quite as expensive, and I think you know, people are also more measured 505 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:27.680 in terms of the expectations. You know, you want to see growth, 506 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.519 but you also want to see, you know, certain unit economics, for 507 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.680 example. So I think it's going a bit more back to business fundamentals. 508 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.640 I think for for us as a firm, actually we are kind of excited 509 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.000 that the slower pace means we get to know founders more. So we actually 510 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.680 found it really hard sometimes in the last you know, eighteen months where you 511 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:47.720 know you'd sort of meet a great founder and they'd be like, okay, 512 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:48.680 we want to term cheat in two days or like, you know, you 513 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:53.680 make a decision like now, because it's such a long term relationship. I 514 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:59.160 mean I often joke, half joke to my founder is easier to get divorced 515 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.279 than to get an investor off a cap table. It's a mutual long term 516 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.160 commitment that you've got to actively opt into and you want to want to have 517 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:10.039 some dating before you commit. What's one book that's inspirity personally? In one 518 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:14.160 book that's inspirity professionally. Actually, it's it's one book that I would say 519 00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:17.799 it has inspired me both personally and professionally. Um, but it's a great 520 00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:22.319 book called when breath becomes air. Um, it's written by Paul Kelennity. 521 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:23.839 That's a great book. I mean, for me it was just I feel 522 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.480 like it was so elegantly and graciously written, especially given to the author. 523 00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:30.960 You know, he was battling stage for a lung cancer while he was also 524 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.759 expecting his first baby and being like a resident neurosurgeon. But I think it 525 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.240 was just, you know, the sort of I read it was a well, 526 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:41.079 I was actually pregnant, and I just feel like it brought such a 527 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.480 clarity in terms of like finding your purpose in life and prioritizing on the things 528 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.160 that matter. So yeah, I really like that. But bottle question to 529 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.920 you is, what is the best piece of advice that you've received? Yes, 530 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:53.720 Um, so this one I'm gonna have to credit. So I I 531 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:59.079 went to Um Stanford for business school Um at GS B and there's a class 532 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.880 there that's sort of a bit of a must have, must take class, 533 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:06.039 which is called touchy feely. I think the proper actual name of it's interpersonal 534 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.240 dynamics, but everyone calls a touchy feely. It's a little bit like group 535 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:12.119 therapy. But one of the biggest sort of, I think, things that 536 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:15.960 I grew, like I took from that class is really that this sense that 537 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:20.000 like vulnerability actually isn't a weakness and that it's actually it can be a real 538 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.720 strength. And instead of fostering authentic relationships, um and that class was a 539 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.799 lot about like being able to feel comfortable enough in yourself to bring your authentic 540 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.599 self to the outside wall as well, and I think that's yeah, that's 541 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:35.240 been really powerful for me, especially in the workplace. I used to when 542 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.920 I was much younger, I sometimes felt like I had to work persona and 543 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:42.920 a personal life persona, and I think bring those together has been it's been 544 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.920 really great. I love that. I love that. Also, just kind 545 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.680 of making yourself more vulnerable, right, and not being, you know, 546 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:52.119 afraid to kind of share this experience, because that actually then deepens the experience. 547 00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.119 It's kind of counterintuitive, right exactly in terms of it. Yeah, 548 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:57.920 not being afraid to kind of get vulnerable. Yeah, I love that, 549 00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:00.799 Susan, thank you so much for your time to just so much fun. 550 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:02.079 Thanks again for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me, 551 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:05.480 Mike, what a pleasure. And there you have it. It was 552 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:07.519 such a pleasure having a susion on the show. I hope you all enjoyed 553 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.640 listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I love it if you'd write a 554 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:15.039 review on the apple podcast. You're also welcome to follow me your host, 555 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.640 Mike, on twitter at Mike Gel and also follow for episode announcements at Consumer 556 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.960 VC. Thanks for listening, everyone, O.